3 ms·

Who raises those men?

by mantas 4y ago

lotsofpulp 4y ago
Many people. Fathers, mothers, grandparents, other family members, friends, teachers, media, bosses. I do not know where you intend to go with your thoughts, but if you are holding women solely responsible for the way men behave, again, we will have to simply disagree.
- mantas 4y ago
  We're talking traditional societies here. It's mostly homeschooling and media is next-to-non-existant. Kids working parents' farm don't have bosses :) Friends and other family members are raised in the same culture by same women. In very traditional societies, (grand)fathers spend very little time with kids compared to (grand)mothers. Of course it's not just women to blame. Men themselves can bring the change too. But blaming just men is ignoring the elephant in the room. In traditional societies, women do have a crapton of power. It is power in a slightly different sense, but I'd argue that it's much bigger power. In modern world, men and women can easily operate on their own by fixing problems using money. In traditional society... Men are toasted if they loose women. Of course, women do have a damn hard time without men too. But this dependence is mutual.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    And yet there are innumerable examples of societies where women lack freedoms and objective power, and almost none where men lack freedoms compared to women. Seems to directly contradict any notion of both sexes having similar levels of power. Hell, 2022 USA is removing women’s power to get the healthcare they need.
    - mantas 4y ago
      They lack freedoms and objective power according to your perception. At the same time women who don't need to care about making income in consumerist world can focus on family and local community. Which, coincidentally, gives a lot of power on raising the next generation. Looking from a different background, postmodernist „freedoms and objective power“ seem very narrow definition that skips a lot of nuances. Individualist postmodernism needs some diversity of thought in this area. P.S. It makes my brain freeze that killing fetus is „healthcare they need“. The new baby needs healthcare as well. For the record, I'm not against abortion per se because sometimes it is the lesser evil. But calling it „healthcare“ sounds batshit insane to me.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        It is healthcare: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar > The new baby needs healthcare as well. And the new baby is welcome to get it outside the womb, where it is no longer affecting someone else. Note that no doctors or women are going around terminating 39 week fetuses for the fun of it. >They lack freedoms and objective power according to your perception. At the same time women who don't need to care about making income in consumerist world can focus on family and local community. Which, coincidentally, gives a lot of power on raising the next generation. Being dependent on men for food, shelter, water, security, and other basic needs is not a limitation of freedom due to my perception, hence my use of the word “objective”, meaning outside of one’s perception. If my daughter cannot choose to live life without the help of a man, that is a restriction of her freedom, and reduction of her power. If a government gave women a universal benefit of housing, food, etc and told them not to work, then maybe your scenario would be true. But I have never heard of a society where the woman does not have to worry about earning income and their spouse earning income, which being dependent on the latter gives them all the power. Objectively.

Who raises those men?

by mantas 4y ago

Who raises those men?

Many people. Fathers, mothers, grandparents, other family members, friends, teachers, media, bosses. I do not know where you intend to go with your thoughts, but if you are holding women solely responsible for the way men behave, again, we will have to simply disagree.

mantas 4y ago
We're talking traditional societies here. It's mostly homeschooling and media is next-to-non-existant. Kids working parents' farm don't have bosses :) Friends and other family members are raised in the same culture by same women. In very traditional societies, (grand)fathers spend very little time with kids compared to (grand)mothers. Of course it's not just women to blame. Men themselves can bring the change too. But blaming just men is ignoring the elephant in the room. In traditional societies, women do have a crapton of power. It is power in a slightly different sense, but I'd argue that it's much bigger power. In modern world, men and women can easily operate on their own by fixing problems using money. In traditional society... Men are toasted if they loose women. Of course, women do have a damn hard time without men too. But this dependence is mutual.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  And yet there are innumerable examples of societies where women lack freedoms and objective power, and almost none where men lack freedoms compared to women. Seems to directly contradict any notion of both sexes having similar levels of power. Hell, 2022 USA is removing women’s power to get the healthcare they need.
  - mantas 4y ago
    They lack freedoms and objective power according to your perception. At the same time women who don't need to care about making income in consumerist world can focus on family and local community. Which, coincidentally, gives a lot of power on raising the next generation. Looking from a different background, postmodernist „freedoms and objective power“ seem very narrow definition that skips a lot of nuances. Individualist postmodernism needs some diversity of thought in this area. P.S. It makes my brain freeze that killing fetus is „healthcare they need“. The new baby needs healthcare as well. For the record, I'm not against abortion per se because sometimes it is the lesser evil. But calling it „healthcare“ sounds batshit insane to me.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      It is healthcare: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar > The new baby needs healthcare as well. And the new baby is welcome to get it outside the womb, where it is no longer affecting someone else. Note that no doctors or women are going around terminating 39 week fetuses for the fun of it. >They lack freedoms and objective power according to your perception. At the same time women who don't need to care about making income in consumerist world can focus on family and local community. Which, coincidentally, gives a lot of power on raising the next generation. Being dependent on men for food, shelter, water, security, and other basic needs is not a limitation of freedom due to my perception, hence my use of the word “objective”, meaning outside of one’s perception. If my daughter cannot choose to live life without the help of a man, that is a restriction of her freedom, and reduction of her power. If a government gave women a universal benefit of housing, food, etc and told them not to work, then maybe your scenario would be true. But I have never heard of a society where the woman does not have to worry about earning income and their spouse earning income, which being dependent on the latter gives them all the power. Objectively.