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I wonder about that. The Germans have imported labor from all over Europe plus Turkey in an effort to keep positions staffed. I don't see how it benefits Germ

by tsotha 15y ago

I wonder about that. The Germans have imported labor from all over Europe plus Turkey in an effort to keep positions staffed. I don't see how it benefits Germans to create all these extra jobs and then fill them with foreigners.

barrkel 15y ago
I see; unemployment is indeed better than immigration, especially from Muslim countries. Anything would be better than that. (Did I misread you? What you write seems rather xenophobic besides being somewhat economically illiterate. From a strict economic point of view, there is no surplus of jobs. The price of labour should rise until the demand for labour abates; and the German workers would be better off. To the degree that that isn't happening (though Germany's population overall is decreasing, not increasing), it is because Germany has an open economy with free movement of labour. If you're attacking that, you're attacking the whole foundation of the EU, and I don't want much more to do with you.)
- seabee 15y ago
  I downvoted you for using racism accusations as a tool to shut down opinions you disagree with. This is no way to have a discussion; in fact it's downright insulting to anyone who thinks critically and likes to explore differing views. Unless you are looking to increase your population you don't design policy to encourage immigration, you design policy to improve the lives of people already living there (indigenous or not). After all the government has invested in these people prior to working via services and schools. It is not xenophobic to put your needs ahead of those outside the country or suggest it should be so. The reason the price of labour doesn't increase needs only a simple answer; that demand is met by supply from an open economy and free movement of labour. This benefits immigrants from weaker economies, of course, but also German businesses who employ them. If the EU did not have this freedom, ordinary Germans would be better off, but we would all lose out for three reasons described by DuncanIdaho.
  - barrkel 15y ago
    First up, Islamophobia is distinct from racism; what's more, it's unfortunately fairly acceptable in the public discourse, in many countries, including the US. You're right that I disagree with it; I think right-thinking people should. But it hardly shut down discussion: you have replied. Furthermore, I don't actually think tsotha was being Islamophobic, just that that was a potential misreading; it seemed slightly xenophobic at best, given the reality that a combination of healthy market for labour and an economy open to free movement of labour naturally gives rise to immigration. Plenty of countries design policies to encourage immigration, of the right people, for different values of "right". Your assertion seems to me to be flat out wrong; the qualification of "looking to increase your population" seems semantically meaningless in this context, as it is assumed in encouraging immigration. I also strongly dispute your assertion that if the EU didn't have freedom of labour, then ordinary Germans would be better off, on far more grounds than DuncanIdaho. Germans would be at least worse off from lacking freedom of labour themselves (these things are normally reciprocal); and they'd have a lot fewer opportunities to trade, and more obstacles, without all the rest of what the EU brings to the table. Furthermore, the character of the European continent would be dramatically different; I think it's questionable that it would have been as peaceful has it has been. Germany would still be split without the EU, for one thing.
- barry-cotter 15y ago
  I too downvoted you for attempting to use a veiled accusation of racism to shut down discussion.
  - barrkel 15y ago
    Please see my reply to seabee. I think your accusation is off-base in all respects.
- tsotha 15y ago
  >I see No, obviously you don't see at all. My point was there's no benefit for a country to create more jobs than it has people. The rest is just projection. It must be easy pride yourself in a good post when you respond to things people didn't write. >From a strict economic point of view, there is no surplus of jobs. The price of labour should rise until the demand for labour abates; and the German workers would be better off. To the degree that that isn't happening (though Germany's population overall is decreasing, not increasing), it is because Germany has an open economy with free movement of labour. Which was my point. This doesn't benefit the Germans. They would have been much better off allowing the price of labor to rise, which would have meant broadly-shared prosperity. As it is, only the large corporations and the state will benefit. But that was the point of the EU, wasn't it? > If you're attacking that, you're attacking the whole foundation of the EU, and I don't want much more to do with you. Oh my! Has the EU become a sacred thing now? It was a stupid idea, or at least a stupid implementation, one that Europe will be regretting for generations. Personally, I try to see the humor in it all - beyond that it's not my problem. Now, if you'll excuse me I need to find a soft shoulder to cry on now that you don't want anything to do with me.
  - barrkel 15y ago
    By saying the EU is a stupid idea, you're attacking things that are core to the best experiences of my life, which is why I said I'd have nothing more to do with you. Specifically, I live, work and travel in many different European countries, none of which are the country of my birth; and so too does my (German) girlfriend. The way of life I've experienced would not be possible without the EU or something very like it. Your opinion, as expressed, is in opposition to my way of life. That's the source of the vehemence of my opposition. (Hopefully you'll note that I am neither a state nor a large corporation, yet I've benefited in many different ways.) (This nationalistic notion that nations are important, that they should look after their own above others, I think is responsible for many evils in history, some very recent. I think humanistic cosmopolitanism is far better than "us for ourselves" ideologies.)
DuncanIdaho 15y ago
Alot of these people will return home (all over Europe plus Turkey) once in the future, and they will bring home with them - piles of saved Euros, German working ethics and loads of knowledge. These people will become centres of new productive hubs, where there has be nothing of the sort thus far. It is just globalisation on smaller scale. Europe is trying hard to integrate and mix all the countries and cultures in Europe to the level that would make warfare between their citizens too costly to anyone.
- tsotha 15y ago
  >Alot of these people will return home (all over Europe plus Turkey) once in the future, and they will bring home with them - piles of saved Euros, German working ethics and loads of knowledge. That's what the Germans thought, originally. Turns out to be wrong. If you move to a new place and live there for a few decades, raising your family there, you don't leave unless you don't have any choice. That place is home, especially for your children. >Europe is trying hard to integrate and mix all the countries and cultures in Europe to the level that would make warfare between their citizens too costly to anyone. Yes, and it's not working. Even the leaders acknowledge that now. And before they get too comfortable they should remember Yugoslavia tried to do the same thing.
  - DuncanIdaho 15y ago
    Not everybody will return, but great deal many will. The fact is that these returning migrants are probably the best bet for increasing the welfare in the parent lands. Even if most of migrants do not return "home" - they still maintain connections with their birthplaces, thus indirectly (and indeed slowly) influencing the culture through osmosis. >Yes, and it's not working. Even the leaders acknowledge that now. And before they get too comfortable they should remember Yugoslavia tried to do the same thing. Hmm. Saying its not working is rash. It didn't work as well as optimists hoped for it also didn't works so bad as pessimists hoped for. What leaders are realizing now is not that EU integration isn't working. It's just that current approach is losing steam. And one should note, that current approach was more of an amalgam of inertia and half assed attitudes than something coordinated and sincere.

by tsotha 15y ago

barrkel 15y ago

I see; unemployment is indeed better than immigration, especially from Muslim countries. Anything would be better than that. (Did I misread you? What you write seems rather xenophobic besides being somewhat economically illiterate. From a strict economic point of view, there is no surplus of jobs. The price of labour should rise until the demand for labour abates; and the German workers would be better off. To the degree that that isn't happening (though Germany's population overall is decreasing, not increasing), it is because Germany has an open economy with free movement of labour. If you're attacking that, you're attacking the whole foundation of the EU, and I don't want much more to do with you.)

seabee 15y ago
I downvoted you for using racism accusations as a tool to shut down opinions you disagree with. This is no way to have a discussion; in fact it's downright insulting to anyone who thinks critically and likes to explore differing views. Unless you are looking to increase your population you don't design policy to encourage immigration, you design policy to improve the lives of people already living there (indigenous or not). After all the government has invested in these people prior to working via services and schools. It is not xenophobic to put your needs ahead of those outside the country or suggest it should be so. The reason the price of labour doesn't increase needs only a simple answer; that demand is met by supply from an open economy and free movement of labour. This benefits immigrants from weaker economies, of course, but also German businesses who employ them. If the EU did not have this freedom, ordinary Germans would be better off, but we would all lose out for three reasons described by DuncanIdaho.
- barrkel 15y ago
  First up, Islamophobia is distinct from racism; what's more, it's unfortunately fairly acceptable in the public discourse, in many countries, including the US. You're right that I disagree with it; I think right-thinking people should. But it hardly shut down discussion: you have replied. Furthermore, I don't actually think tsotha was being Islamophobic, just that that was a potential misreading; it seemed slightly xenophobic at best, given the reality that a combination of healthy market for labour and an economy open to free movement of labour naturally gives rise to immigration. Plenty of countries design policies to encourage immigration, of the right people, for different values of "right". Your assertion seems to me to be flat out wrong; the qualification of "looking to increase your population" seems semantically meaningless in this context, as it is assumed in encouraging immigration. I also strongly dispute your assertion that if the EU didn't have freedom of labour, then ordinary Germans would be better off, on far more grounds than DuncanIdaho. Germans would be at least worse off from lacking freedom of labour themselves (these things are normally reciprocal); and they'd have a lot fewer opportunities to trade, and more obstacles, without all the rest of what the EU brings to the table. Furthermore, the character of the European continent would be dramatically different; I think it's questionable that it would have been as peaceful has it has been. Germany would still be split without the EU, for one thing.
barry-cotter 15y ago
I too downvoted you for attempting to use a veiled accusation of racism to shut down discussion.
- barrkel 15y ago
  Please see my reply to seabee. I think your accusation is off-base in all respects.
tsotha 15y ago
>I see No, obviously you don't see at all. My point was there's no benefit for a country to create more jobs than it has people. The rest is just projection. It must be easy pride yourself in a good post when you respond to things people didn't write. >From a strict economic point of view, there is no surplus of jobs. The price of labour should rise until the demand for labour abates; and the German workers would be better off. To the degree that that isn't happening (though Germany's population overall is decreasing, not increasing), it is because Germany has an open economy with free movement of labour. Which was my point. This doesn't benefit the Germans. They would have been much better off allowing the price of labor to rise, which would have meant broadly-shared prosperity. As it is, only the large corporations and the state will benefit. But that was the point of the EU, wasn't it? > If you're attacking that, you're attacking the whole foundation of the EU, and I don't want much more to do with you. Oh my! Has the EU become a sacred thing now? It was a stupid idea, or at least a stupid implementation, one that Europe will be regretting for generations. Personally, I try to see the humor in it all - beyond that it's not my problem. Now, if you'll excuse me I need to find a soft shoulder to cry on now that you don't want anything to do with me.
- barrkel 15y ago
  By saying the EU is a stupid idea, you're attacking things that are core to the best experiences of my life, which is why I said I'd have nothing more to do with you. Specifically, I live, work and travel in many different European countries, none of which are the country of my birth; and so too does my (German) girlfriend. The way of life I've experienced would not be possible without the EU or something very like it. Your opinion, as expressed, is in opposition to my way of life. That's the source of the vehemence of my opposition. (Hopefully you'll note that I am neither a state nor a large corporation, yet I've benefited in many different ways.) (This nationalistic notion that nations are important, that they should look after their own above others, I think is responsible for many evils in history, some very recent. I think humanistic cosmopolitanism is far better than "us for ourselves" ideologies.)

DuncanIdaho 15y ago

Alot of these people will return home (all over Europe plus Turkey) once in the future, and they will bring home with them - piles of saved Euros, German working ethics and loads of knowledge. These people will become centres of new productive hubs, where there has be nothing of the sort thus far. It is just globalisation on smaller scale. Europe is trying hard to integrate and mix all the countries and cultures in Europe to the level that would make warfare between their citizens too costly to anyone.

tsotha 15y ago
>Alot of these people will return home (all over Europe plus Turkey) once in the future, and they will bring home with them - piles of saved Euros, German working ethics and loads of knowledge. That's what the Germans thought, originally. Turns out to be wrong. If you move to a new place and live there for a few decades, raising your family there, you don't leave unless you don't have any choice. That place is home, especially for your children. >Europe is trying hard to integrate and mix all the countries and cultures in Europe to the level that would make warfare between their citizens too costly to anyone. Yes, and it's not working. Even the leaders acknowledge that now. And before they get too comfortable they should remember Yugoslavia tried to do the same thing.
- DuncanIdaho 15y ago
  Not everybody will return, but great deal many will. The fact is that these returning migrants are probably the best bet for increasing the welfare in the parent lands. Even if most of migrants do not return "home" - they still maintain connections with their birthplaces, thus indirectly (and indeed slowly) influencing the culture through osmosis. >Yes, and it's not working. Even the leaders acknowledge that now. And before they get too comfortable they should remember Yugoslavia tried to do the same thing. Hmm. Saying its not working is rash. It didn't work as well as optimists hoped for it also didn't works so bad as pessimists hoped for. What leaders are realizing now is not that EU integration isn't working. It's just that current approach is losing steam. And one should note, that current approach was more of an amalgam of inertia and half assed attitudes than something coordinated and sincere.