7 ms·

The problem was not the oxidation. That problem is easily dealt with by applying antioxidant paste at the wire terminations, as is required. The problem was sin

by sgc 4y ago

The problem was not the oxidation. That problem is easily dealt with by applying antioxidant paste at the wire terminations, as is required. The problem was single strand solid conductor aluminum wiring. Higher capacity wires are multistrand, and virtually all such wiring is aluminum due to the cost difference. Single strand solid aluminum conductors expand and contract due to heat changes from high draw, they can work themselves loose, and eventually create shorts and fires. They make special connectors so you can remedy this by attaching a small piece of copper wire (a pigtail) to the aluminum, and don't need to replace all the wiring in your house. This of course means that we could just legislate for better connectors throughout the building, as we should do anyways, and we could safely use single strand solid conductor aluminum wiring instead of copper virtually everywhere.

eru 4y ago
Not sure why you'd need any legislation? The higher insurance premiums already send exactly the right incentives, don't they?
- kortilla 4y ago
  When you’re a hammer, all you see are nails.
  - eru 4y ago
    Most people are not regulators by trade, yet they see a lot of need for regulation.
    - kortilla 4y ago
      If you live in a representative democracy and vote for politicians that expand regulations, you are effectively regulating. > yet they see a lot of need for regulation Of course they do, their ideology reaches for that solution by default. Look at this particular thread just to see how misguided the recommendation for regulation was in this case.
      - eru 4y ago
        > If you live in a representative democracy and vote for politicians that expand regulations, you are effectively regulating. Yes and No. I have a lot of sympathies for that argument, but also for the view that individual votes don't matter.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Does the person choosing the wire know about and pay the ongoing future insurance premiums? See builders/landlords and insulation.
  - eru 4y ago
    I would assume that a house that has fewer ongoing maintenance costs would sell or rent for more (in a competitive market)? If buyer or renters are totally oblivious, why offer any features at all?
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      Yeah, with perfect information these wouldn't compete. This is why some countries put energy efficiency labels on products and on property sales. To make the market work better. Some countries just prefer to ignore long term problems for short term "gains" though, in a tragic fractal way.
      - eru 4y ago
        I'm not sure why you talk about countries? I don't think there's any law anywhere that prohibits a manufacturer from sticking the required information on their product and in their marketing. As a customer, I can draw my own conclusions when a manufacturer doesn't provide the information: I'll assume that thing is a gas guzzler and will avoid it. (Unless I read trusted reviews to the contrary.)
        ZeroGravitas 4y ago
        It's not the law that prevents the people in a Prisoners Dilemma situation from freely choosing the best outcome for themselves. It's the lack of enforcement of rules which incentives defection. In this case: good guy installs insulation bad guy doesn't good guy publishes info on future savings bad guy publishes fake info good guy publishes trusted reviews bad guy publishes fake reviews. and so on. The good guys want the legislation, not to force then to do the thing they wanted to do anyway, they want it to stop bad guys putting them out of business via scamming customers.
- r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
  Not really. If the higher insurance costs are born by the building owner rather than the person who installs the wiring (which is likely the case), then increased insurance premiums aren't likely to haveuch effect. Classic externality
  - eru 4y ago
    Surely there must be some causal connection between the building owner and the wire installer? (If not, why bother installing wires at all?)
    - tibbetts 4y ago
      The causal connection can be remarkably tenuous, especially if you add securitization or other financialization into the mix. The people supplying the money often care more about hitting standards than maximizing overall eventual profit. Understanding this aspect of human and market behavior is useful for realizing why a lot of libertarian ideas are unworkable in practice.
      - eru 4y ago
        Not sure, it's very workable for lots of other aspects of buildings. Eg I don't think there's a legislation that floorplans have to be useful (and how would you even define that in the abstract). Yet, most buildings have quite reasonable floorplans. There's some transaction costs in that its hard for the eventually consumer of the building to express all their preference to the builder. As you say, for some aspects the price signals can be weak. More competition can help. See also how it's pretty easy to find restaurants that serve tasty food, despite taste not being legislated nor regulated.
- midenginedcoupe 4y ago
  Ha! Thanks, I needed a laugh this morning. But seriously though, since when did Laissez-faire economics and legislation ever lead to sufficient safety not to kill people or burn down their homes willy-nilly? HN is the only place I visit that has such wild ideas as "safety regs are too burdensome, let the free market sort it out".
  - eru 4y ago
    Compare eg https://www.econlib.org/dont-regulate-health-and-safety/ https://www.econlib.org/dont-regulate-health-and-safety/ I did not suggest throwing out any existing regulation, merely that we don't need more regulation. Surely you can not argue that we need an infinite amount of more regulation? There must be some level that's enough?
  - londons_explore 4y ago
    In the UK, only around 1 person per year is killed by electricity in the home. And often that person is doing something totally non-standard, for example building a tesla coil, or deliberately committing suicide. Contrast that to 250,000 deaths per year (in the USA) by medical mistakes or preventable adverse effects. At some point, we have to decide where to put our efforts. Electrical safety is arguably oversolved - ie. we put too much effort into it compared to the safety gain of any extra effort, compared to medical accidents which is likely undersolved. Even simple things like requiring a doctor to not do more than an 8 hour shift, like we require of truck drivers, would probably save a lot of lives. The idea of 'more safety is always better' needs to be broken.
ars 4y ago
> by applying antioxidant paste at the wire terminations, as is required As is NOT required. This is old old info: antioxidant paste is not just not required, in some places you will fail inspection if add it, and other electricians might laugh at you for not keeping up to date. > expand and contract due to heat changes from high draw, they can work themselves loose Nope, this is also not true. It's simply that there is a new allow of aluminum used today (since 1975) which retains its strength under heating and this problem is solved. > This of course means that we could just legislate for better connectors throughout the building Connector rated for Cu/Al are widely available, and not hard to make. There's just no market for it for smaller wires since everyone got scared and no one wants to install aluminum anymore. It doesn't have to be that way, the current alloy is 47 years old at this point. People just don't want to change.
- sgc 4y ago
  Doing a little reading and there is some truth to some of what you say, but it is not any more correct than what I said because we are both a bit lacking in nuance, so I will just leave a few links for further reading. I don't agree with your conclusion that everything is now ok and it's just nerves. My point on legislation would be just to take anything not rated for the use off the market, so there would be no worry about installations using the wrong products. Some of the problems with aluminum wiring and whether all problems are solved: https://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Hazards.php https://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Hazards.p... Requirement for antioxidant paste whenever manufacturer requires it (most of the time). https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2022/1/is-antioxidant-paste-code-required-for-aluminum-wire-lug-connections.html https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2022/1/is-ant...
  - ars 4y ago
    I looked at your link and they confirm what I said 100%. Aluminum installations after approx 1975 are simply not a problem. There is no issue with oxidation, no issue with multi strand, nothing. > I don't agree with your conclusion that everything is now ok and it's just nerves. What issues do you find? All you need is a connector rated Cu/AlR and that's it.
jacknews 4y ago
It seems like this is an ideal case for modular wiring, ie the wire is cut to size, and terminated with modular connectors at the factory. Installation is just threading the wire through the building and pluging it in. Connectors could be copper, the wire itself could be aluminium, completely sealed in pvc.
- amluto 4y ago
  Have you ever tried installing a pre-terminated wire through a wall. 12- or 14- AWG wire is extremely easy to terminate correctly.

by sgc 4y ago

eru 4y ago

Not sure why you'd need any legislation? The higher insurance premiums already send exactly the right incentives, don't they?

kortilla 4y ago
When you’re a hammer, all you see are nails.
- eru 4y ago
  Most people are not regulators by trade, yet they see a lot of need for regulation.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    If you live in a representative democracy and vote for politicians that expand regulations, you are effectively regulating. > yet they see a lot of need for regulation Of course they do, their ideology reaches for that solution by default. Look at this particular thread just to see how misguided the recommendation for regulation was in this case.
    - eru 4y ago
      > If you live in a representative democracy and vote for politicians that expand regulations, you are effectively regulating. Yes and No. I have a lot of sympathies for that argument, but also for the view that individual votes don't matter.
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Does the person choosing the wire know about and pay the ongoing future insurance premiums? See builders/landlords and insulation.
- eru 4y ago
  I would assume that a house that has fewer ongoing maintenance costs would sell or rent for more (in a competitive market)? If buyer or renters are totally oblivious, why offer any features at all?
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Yeah, with perfect information these wouldn't compete. This is why some countries put energy efficiency labels on products and on property sales. To make the market work better. Some countries just prefer to ignore long term problems for short term "gains" though, in a tragic fractal way.
    - eru 4y ago
      I'm not sure why you talk about countries? I don't think there's any law anywhere that prohibits a manufacturer from sticking the required information on their product and in their marketing. As a customer, I can draw my own conclusions when a manufacturer doesn't provide the information: I'll assume that thing is a gas guzzler and will avoid it. (Unless I read trusted reviews to the contrary.)
      - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
        It's not the law that prevents the people in a Prisoners Dilemma situation from freely choosing the best outcome for themselves. It's the lack of enforcement of rules which incentives defection. In this case: good guy installs insulation bad guy doesn't good guy publishes info on future savings bad guy publishes fake info good guy publishes trusted reviews bad guy publishes fake reviews. and so on. The good guys want the legislation, not to force then to do the thing they wanted to do anyway, they want it to stop bad guys putting them out of business via scamming customers.
r_hoods_ghost 4y ago
Not really. If the higher insurance costs are born by the building owner rather than the person who installs the wiring (which is likely the case), then increased insurance premiums aren't likely to haveuch effect. Classic externality
- eru 4y ago
  Surely there must be some causal connection between the building owner and the wire installer? (If not, why bother installing wires at all?)
  - tibbetts 4y ago
    The causal connection can be remarkably tenuous, especially if you add securitization or other financialization into the mix. The people supplying the money often care more about hitting standards than maximizing overall eventual profit. Understanding this aspect of human and market behavior is useful for realizing why a lot of libertarian ideas are unworkable in practice.
    - eru 4y ago
      Not sure, it's very workable for lots of other aspects of buildings. Eg I don't think there's a legislation that floorplans have to be useful (and how would you even define that in the abstract). Yet, most buildings have quite reasonable floorplans. There's some transaction costs in that its hard for the eventually consumer of the building to express all their preference to the builder. As you say, for some aspects the price signals can be weak. More competition can help. See also how it's pretty easy to find restaurants that serve tasty food, despite taste not being legislated nor regulated.
midenginedcoupe 4y ago
Ha! Thanks, I needed a laugh this morning. But seriously though, since when did Laissez-faire economics and legislation ever lead to sufficient safety not to kill people or burn down their homes willy-nilly? HN is the only place I visit that has such wild ideas as "safety regs are too burdensome, let the free market sort it out".
- eru 4y ago
  Compare eg https://www.econlib.org/dont-regulate-health-and-safety/ https://www.econlib.org/dont-regulate-health-and-safety/ I did not suggest throwing out any existing regulation, merely that we don't need more regulation. Surely you can not argue that we need an infinite amount of more regulation? There must be some level that's enough?
- londons_explore 4y ago
  In the UK, only around 1 person per year is killed by electricity in the home. And often that person is doing something totally non-standard, for example building a tesla coil, or deliberately committing suicide. Contrast that to 250,000 deaths per year (in the USA) by medical mistakes or preventable adverse effects. At some point, we have to decide where to put our efforts. Electrical safety is arguably oversolved - ie. we put too much effort into it compared to the safety gain of any extra effort, compared to medical accidents which is likely undersolved. Even simple things like requiring a doctor to not do more than an 8 hour shift, like we require of truck drivers, would probably save a lot of lives. The idea of 'more safety is always better' needs to be broken.

ars 4y ago

> by applying antioxidant paste at the wire terminations, as is required As is NOT required. This is old old info: antioxidant paste is not just not required, in some places you will fail inspection if add it, and other electricians might laugh at you for not keeping up to date. > expand and contract due to heat changes from high draw, they can work themselves loose Nope, this is also not true. It's simply that there is a new allow of aluminum used today (since 1975) which retains its strength under heating and this problem is solved. > This of course means that we could just legislate for better connectors throughout the building Connector rated for Cu/Al are widely available, and not hard to make. There's just no market for it for smaller wires since everyone got scared and no one wants to install aluminum anymore. It doesn't have to be that way, the current alloy is 47 years old at this point. People just don't want to change.

sgc 4y ago
Doing a little reading and there is some truth to some of what you say, but it is not any more correct than what I said because we are both a bit lacking in nuance, so I will just leave a few links for further reading. I don't agree with your conclusion that everything is now ok and it's just nerves. My point on legislation would be just to take anything not rated for the use off the market, so there would be no worry about installations using the wrong products. Some of the problems with aluminum wiring and whether all problems are solved: https://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Hazards.php https://inspectapedia.com/aluminum/Aluminum_Wiring_Hazards.p... Requirement for antioxidant paste whenever manufacturer requires it (most of the time). https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2022/1/is-antioxidant-paste-code-required-for-aluminum-wire-lug-connections.html https://www.howtolookatahouse.com/Blog/Entries/2022/1/is-ant...
- ars 4y ago
  I looked at your link and they confirm what I said 100%. Aluminum installations after approx 1975 are simply not a problem. There is no issue with oxidation, no issue with multi strand, nothing. > I don't agree with your conclusion that everything is now ok and it's just nerves. What issues do you find? All you need is a connector rated Cu/AlR and that's it.

jacknews 4y ago

It seems like this is an ideal case for modular wiring, ie the wire is cut to size, and terminated with modular connectors at the factory. Installation is just threading the wire through the building and pluging it in. Connectors could be copper, the wire itself could be aluminium, completely sealed in pvc.

amluto 4y ago
Have you ever tried installing a pre-terminated wire through a wall. 12- or 14- AWG wire is extremely easy to terminate correctly.