4 ms·

This seems like the correct thing to do. There was at one point in time a more popular push in India to “connect all the rivers”. I was too young to fully under

This seems like the correct thing to do. There was at one point in time a more popular push in India to “connect all the rivers”. I was too young to fully understand what that meant, and also it’s not always easy to know whether something that’s proposed is truly feasible. But infrastructure to move water around your country especially when a large chunk is a desert makes perfect sense. I originally imagined this would mean somehow exploiting the Great Lakes but the argument suggested here seems quite practical. Not saying wasteful agriculture on export crops shouldn’t be banned (it should) and perhaps people should stop having so many golf courses, but free flowing water is a true mark of advanced Civilization and it’s not unfair for a country to build the infra to guarantee it.

kickout 4y ago
- s5300 4y ago
  California being the 5th largest world GDP if it were its own country, I think it may come out on top pretty easily. Also the home of things we bomb the shit out of people with…
  - kickout 4y ago
    You think CA would still be 5th in GDP without reliable water? Unless desalination becomes more efficient, CA is thirsty.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      It looks like agriculture isn't a huge percentage of their economy, so they'd probably still be up there (unless I've misread the chart). https://www.statista.com/statistics/304869/california-real-gdp-by-industry/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/304869/california-real-g...
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - kickout 4y ago
        I was trying to imply once water sourcing becomes a major issues, basic needs for residents will become hard. Agriculture is small % but if water is a problem, there will be some exodus of people/corps. That’s where the big gdp hits would likely come from
        bee_rider 4y ago
        > Statewide, average water use is roughly 50% environmental, 40% agricultural, and 10% urban, although the percentage of water use by sector varies dramatically across regions and between wet and dry years. (it looks, based on their graphs, like agricultural usage is sticker, in the sense that it doesn't go down nearly as much in dry years). https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ Since agricultural use takes up a ton of water and produces a fairly small % of the overall GDP, I'd expect them to shift usage toward whatever the high-productivity sectors want before they allow an exodus.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    The Midwest states or the states of the Boston-DC corridor, or the gulf coast states are all similarly large economic blocks. The "muh fifth largest economy" trope is just a reflection of state borders that really have little impact at the federal political level. Furthermore, CA stands of a lot of stuff a lot of people hate. Indiana and Ohio will gladly put aside their hatred for each other if CA is trying to screw them both.
    - justin66 4y ago
      > Indiana and Ohio will gladly put aside their hatred for each other I think you might harbor some odd ideas about the existing relationships between Midwestern states, or perhaps you’re taking a football rivalry too seriously.
- ramraj07 4y ago
  What exactly is greedy about ”westerners” than those in the east? People just set their homes wherever they felt convenient assuming their taxes would get them the water they need. Sounds like you’re just bringing in prejudiced politics into a discussion about getting water to everyone in your country. Also, inconsistent? Pretty sure the biggest water guzzlers everywhere, the farmers vote republican.
  - kickout 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_water_wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_water_wars Tell me how CA hasn’t been greedy in their pursuit of water
- pvg 4y ago
  Travesty or not, not-posting regional flamewar all over the thread would be a good start.
  - RajT88 4y ago
    What has really surprised me about this topic is not the regional flamewar stuff in comment threads like this. It's that newspapers have been running passive-aggressive opeds of the same tone, thinking it's worthwhile. You can guess what kind of opeds are getting run in which regions.
  - kickout 4y ago
    Fair. Got heated in some comments. That said, I do think water “wars” will be a thing in the not so distant future. Gonna get nasty IRL. Not meant to incite, just a prediction
- tracerbulletx 4y ago
  The eastern United States has no shortage of water and presumably the states providing water would benefit economically from providing it to the areas that do.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ygjb 4y ago
    Aside from Lake Michigan, Canadians might have something to say about this...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
brightball 4y ago
This seems reasonable to me. 5% of the water that’s just going into the gulf otherwise seems perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, the engineering to elevate that much water will be interesting.
alar44 4y ago
No, it's the stupid status quo thing to do. People need to move where resources are, not shift resources across an entire fucking continent doing god knows what to the ecosystems in between. This godlike arrogance thinking we can just rearrange the earth on a whim for our needs is the fucking problem. This is why humanity is a cancer.
- atmartins 4y ago
  Should... should. So. Should they move the canneries, ports, flat land, abundant sun and all the skilled labor and their families? Mechanics, installers, fabricators, etc. It's not like it's a small operation. There are canneries almost a mile long. There are small mountains of peach pits that form when they're processed (these are used for other purposes by the way!). What about mature orchards? I'm not sure why people hate California so much. It's got a lot of problems, like most places... But it's pretty amazing how much shit goes on there.
  - lamontcg 4y ago
    I don't hate California at all, I'm a Washington Liberal. But the agriculture in California in the face of climate change is completely unsustainable. It is up there with the coal mining and fracking in Pennsylvania. We need to properly manage the crisis and reduce the amount of human suffering involved because uprooting people in painful. The alternative seems like we could wind up having literal water wars at some point. This proposal caps the diversion at 5% but that seems the same as building more freeways to me, which just causes more traffic. Give California more water and the agricultural industry will expand and you'll kick the can down the road again.
  - alar44 4y ago
  - mrguyorama 4y ago
    I hate california because out of hubris they create their own huge problems, ignore the obvious but slightly detrimental to the elite there solutions, claim the actual solution is some huge overengineered, overthought, magic bullet solution that is pretty much impossible to actually happen, and then that all allows Republicans to point and laugh and pretend the rest of the Democrat led states aren't perfectly functional and doing very well.

kickout 4y ago

s5300 4y ago
California being the 5th largest world GDP if it were its own country, I think it may come out on top pretty easily. Also the home of things we bomb the shit out of people with…
- kickout 4y ago
  You think CA would still be 5th in GDP without reliable water? Unless desalination becomes more efficient, CA is thirsty.
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    It looks like agriculture isn't a huge percentage of their economy, so they'd probably still be up there (unless I've misread the chart). https://www.statista.com/statistics/304869/california-real-gdp-by-industry/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/304869/california-real-g...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - kickout 4y ago
      I was trying to imply once water sourcing becomes a major issues, basic needs for residents will become hard. Agriculture is small % but if water is a problem, there will be some exodus of people/corps. That’s where the big gdp hits would likely come from
      - bee_rider 4y ago
        > Statewide, average water use is roughly 50% environmental, 40% agricultural, and 10% urban, although the percentage of water use by sector varies dramatically across regions and between wet and dry years. (it looks, based on their graphs, like agricultural usage is sticker, in the sense that it doesn't go down nearly as much in dry years). https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ https://www.ppic.org/publication/water-use-in-california/ Since agricultural use takes up a ton of water and produces a fairly small % of the overall GDP, I'd expect them to shift usage toward whatever the high-productivity sectors want before they allow an exodus.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  The Midwest states or the states of the Boston-DC corridor, or the gulf coast states are all similarly large economic blocks. The "muh fifth largest economy" trope is just a reflection of state borders that really have little impact at the federal political level. Furthermore, CA stands of a lot of stuff a lot of people hate. Indiana and Ohio will gladly put aside their hatred for each other if CA is trying to screw them both.
  - justin66 4y ago
    > Indiana and Ohio will gladly put aside their hatred for each other I think you might harbor some odd ideas about the existing relationships between Midwestern states, or perhaps you’re taking a football rivalry too seriously.
ramraj07 4y ago
What exactly is greedy about ”westerners” than those in the east? People just set their homes wherever they felt convenient assuming their taxes would get them the water they need. Sounds like you’re just bringing in prejudiced politics into a discussion about getting water to everyone in your country. Also, inconsistent? Pretty sure the biggest water guzzlers everywhere, the farmers vote republican.
- kickout 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_water_wars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_water_wars Tell me how CA hasn’t been greedy in their pursuit of water
pvg 4y ago
Travesty or not, not-posting regional flamewar all over the thread would be a good start.
- RajT88 4y ago
  What has really surprised me about this topic is not the regional flamewar stuff in comment threads like this. It's that newspapers have been running passive-aggressive opeds of the same tone, thinking it's worthwhile. You can guess what kind of opeds are getting run in which regions.
- kickout 4y ago
  Fair. Got heated in some comments. That said, I do think water “wars” will be a thing in the not so distant future. Gonna get nasty IRL. Not meant to incite, just a prediction
tracerbulletx 4y ago
The eastern United States has no shortage of water and presumably the states providing water would benefit economically from providing it to the areas that do.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ygjb 4y ago
  Aside from Lake Michigan, Canadians might have something to say about this...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

brightball 4y ago

This seems reasonable to me. 5% of the water that’s just going into the gulf otherwise seems perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, the engineering to elevate that much water will be interesting.

alar44 4y ago

No, it's the stupid status quo thing to do. People need to move where resources are, not shift resources across an entire fucking continent doing god knows what to the ecosystems in between. This godlike arrogance thinking we can just rearrange the earth on a whim for our needs is the fucking problem. This is why humanity is a cancer.

atmartins 4y ago
Should... should. So. Should they move the canneries, ports, flat land, abundant sun and all the skilled labor and their families? Mechanics, installers, fabricators, etc. It's not like it's a small operation. There are canneries almost a mile long. There are small mountains of peach pits that form when they're processed (these are used for other purposes by the way!). What about mature orchards? I'm not sure why people hate California so much. It's got a lot of problems, like most places... But it's pretty amazing how much shit goes on there.
- lamontcg 4y ago
  I don't hate California at all, I'm a Washington Liberal. But the agriculture in California in the face of climate change is completely unsustainable. It is up there with the coal mining and fracking in Pennsylvania. We need to properly manage the crisis and reduce the amount of human suffering involved because uprooting people in painful. The alternative seems like we could wind up having literal water wars at some point. This proposal caps the diversion at 5% but that seems the same as building more freeways to me, which just causes more traffic. Give California more water and the agricultural industry will expand and you'll kick the can down the road again.
- alar44 4y ago
- mrguyorama 4y ago
  I hate california because out of hubris they create their own huge problems, ignore the obvious but slightly detrimental to the elite there solutions, claim the actual solution is some huge overengineered, overthought, magic bullet solution that is pretty much impossible to actually happen, and then that all allows Republicans to point and laugh and pretend the rest of the Democrat led states aren't perfectly functional and doing very well.