5 ms·

As long as the supposed topic of this thread (TSMC put up a building, but so far it has no fab equipment inside) is so irrelevant, can I ask something off topic

As long as the supposed topic of this thread (TSMC put up a building, but so far it has no fab equipment inside) is so irrelevant, can I ask something off topic but slightly related? SMIC is supposedly shipping 7nm chips now. There was a big national security thing to prevent SMIC from getting access to ASML EUV steppers. Does their 7nm process mean they now have made their own EUV gear? Or did they get ASML steppers after all? It seemed weird for such a critical technology to stay single sourced from just one company for so many years.

wmf 4y ago
7 nm doesn't require EUV and SMIC is not using EUV.
richk449 4y ago
I assume they are doing some crazy number of patterns to get to that feature size: http://www.monolithic3d.com/blog/the-quad-patterning-era-begins http://www.monolithic3d.com/blog/the-quad-patterning-era-beg... But I’m curious if someone knows the details.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  This is correct, there is an article (I think on the semianalysis) that summarises the process - they are using multi-patterning as TSMC did with their N7 7nm process. The real shocker is that they've been pumping out 7nm commercially since at least a year, which is a feat that most thought was still a ways ahead. It means that they are far more capable than previously thought.
  - nebula8804 4y ago
    >The real shocker is that they've been pumping out 7nm commercially since at least a year, which is a feat that most thought was still a ways ahead. It means that they are far more capable than previously thought. This seems like a real failure in intelligence gathering. How do you think this happened?
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      I don't think we can conclude it's an intelligence failure. Perhaps the intelligence community already knew?
ip26 4y ago
ASML took all the risk in developing EUV alone- everyone else thought it basically couldn’t be done- and now they hold the key patents.
- kcb 4y ago
  > ASML took all the risk in developing EUV alone Not really. They acquired Cymer for their EUV tech.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  Not quite. A lot of the research on EUV was in collaboration with various national laboratories and universities. They were far from the only ones thinking it could be done. The Chinese themselves wanted to give it a shot before ASML proved it was possible. It's mostly that ASML's competition generally wasn't keeping up. They have a monopoly even on last-gen DUV. Canon and Nikon didn't keep up and couldn't afford to work on EUV.
- cromwellian 4y ago
  What? Where do you get this? The US DOE and EUV LLC a consortium of loads of companies like Intel and IBM spent well over a decade investing in EUV research including many methods like electron beams and using a synchotron. ASML was late to the party and joined EUV LLC after a lot of the research had been done. And the laser needed to make EUV machines work is from Cyner, ASML bought this company. Took all the risk? Geez.
sudosysgen 4y ago
SMIC is doing EUV by multi-patterning. TSMC was doing the same until their N7+ process. China is still working on their domestic EUV machines.
- chrisjc 4y ago
  Asianometry released a video yesterday related to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQGnwKBxAKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQGnwKBxAKk While stating that SMIC might still be around 4-6 years behind the competition, I was completely shocked to hear it was only that. The next few years are going to be some very interesting times.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    I disagree with the Asianometry video. SMIC is not 4-6 years behind, they are at most 3 years behind. They have been operating this node commercially for at least a year, and TSMC came out with N7 in 2018. It's more than likely also that they have been producing at appreciable volume for the Chinese government before then - see Chinese supercomputers not showing up on Top500 as corroboration, but being credibly rumoured to be at the top 2 spots. The note about economic competitiveness is bizarre. If TSMC was more economical than SMIC, Minerva would have went with TSMC. And it's clear they are not selling at a loss, because their earnings report <28nm category has been increasing profit. I suggest sticking to the SemiAnalysis report, honestly. Asianometry has no additional information, and the video lacks some of it. The rest is going beyond or against the information we have.
bigcat12345678 4y ago
> SMIC is supposedly shipping 7nm chips now. There was a big national security thing to prevent SMIC from getting access to ASML EUV steppers. What's the logic behind the national security thing of SMIC shipping 7nm? By national, which nation is being referred here? I thought technology competition is the best kind of capitalism, right? How is it a national security thing that your competitor is catching up? Isn't that a good thing that capitalism is actually working?
- wmf 4y ago
  To simplify things a bit, the west has been using globalized capitalism where tech created in the west benefits the whole world but China has been following a more mercantilist style of capitalism where Chinese tech mostly benefits China. Once the US finally realized this they started slowing China down, like restricting EUV.
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    > whole world but China has been following a more mercantilist style of capitalism where Chinese tech mostly benefits China First time hearing such claim. Mind to provide to some decently-compiled reports on "Chinese capitalism benefiting China mostly"?
    - arroz 4y ago
      I don’t think this is necessarily true, but what is true is that China is increasingly engaging in trade wars against countries that do things they disapprove For instance, China has stopped buying a lot of stuff from Australia because of politics So yeah, I wouldn’t want to rely on China for chips (or anything really, though that is impossible nowadays)
      - bigcat12345678 4y ago
        > engaging in trade wars against countries that do things they disapprove > China has stopped buying a lot of stuff from Australia because of politics They disapprove? That's a fundamentally flawed gloss over an otherwise simple fact: Australia takes a political stance that fundamentally treat China as an enemy, the same way as what the West's stance towards USSR, at a moment China has not taken any political stance like USSR towards the West. Imagine that you frequent a bar, often engaging in chat with all sorts of people. For whatever reason (let's for now not mud the discussion on why some countries decide to take the above mentioned political stance) some guys used to chat normally with you, suddenly reject you altogether, and are plotting to label you an unwelcome person to the bar, so that you are disallowed to enter the bar. Would you start picking the weak guys of this small clique and try to thwart this plot? > I wouldn’t want to rely on China for chips Sure, but you dont need to, you depend on TSMC. And you still not answer the simple question. Given the fact that depending on China for advanced chip manufacturing is security issue, why China herself depend on their own chip manufacturer a national security thing for US? Isn't that a thing has nothing to do with US national security?

wmf 4y ago

7 nm doesn't require EUV and SMIC is not using EUV.

richk449 4y ago

I assume they are doing some crazy number of patterns to get to that feature size: http://www.monolithic3d.com/blog/the-quad-patterning-era-begins http://www.monolithic3d.com/blog/the-quad-patterning-era-beg... But I’m curious if someone knows the details.

sudosysgen 4y ago
This is correct, there is an article (I think on the semianalysis) that summarises the process - they are using multi-patterning as TSMC did with their N7 7nm process. The real shocker is that they've been pumping out 7nm commercially since at least a year, which is a feat that most thought was still a ways ahead. It means that they are far more capable than previously thought.
- nebula8804 4y ago
  >The real shocker is that they've been pumping out 7nm commercially since at least a year, which is a feat that most thought was still a ways ahead. It means that they are far more capable than previously thought. This seems like a real failure in intelligence gathering. How do you think this happened?
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    I don't think we can conclude it's an intelligence failure. Perhaps the intelligence community already knew?

ip26 4y ago

ASML took all the risk in developing EUV alone- everyone else thought it basically couldn’t be done- and now they hold the key patents.

kcb 4y ago
> ASML took all the risk in developing EUV alone Not really. They acquired Cymer for their EUV tech.
sudosysgen 4y ago
Not quite. A lot of the research on EUV was in collaboration with various national laboratories and universities. They were far from the only ones thinking it could be done. The Chinese themselves wanted to give it a shot before ASML proved it was possible. It's mostly that ASML's competition generally wasn't keeping up. They have a monopoly even on last-gen DUV. Canon and Nikon didn't keep up and couldn't afford to work on EUV.
cromwellian 4y ago
What? Where do you get this? The US DOE and EUV LLC a consortium of loads of companies like Intel and IBM spent well over a decade investing in EUV research including many methods like electron beams and using a synchotron. ASML was late to the party and joined EUV LLC after a lot of the research had been done. And the laser needed to make EUV machines work is from Cyner, ASML bought this company. Took all the risk? Geez.

sudosysgen 4y ago

SMIC is doing EUV by multi-patterning. TSMC was doing the same until their N7+ process. China is still working on their domestic EUV machines.

chrisjc 4y ago
Asianometry released a video yesterday related to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQGnwKBxAKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQGnwKBxAKk While stating that SMIC might still be around 4-6 years behind the competition, I was completely shocked to hear it was only that. The next few years are going to be some very interesting times.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  I disagree with the Asianometry video. SMIC is not 4-6 years behind, they are at most 3 years behind. They have been operating this node commercially for at least a year, and TSMC came out with N7 in 2018. It's more than likely also that they have been producing at appreciable volume for the Chinese government before then - see Chinese supercomputers not showing up on Top500 as corroboration, but being credibly rumoured to be at the top 2 spots. The note about economic competitiveness is bizarre. If TSMC was more economical than SMIC, Minerva would have went with TSMC. And it's clear they are not selling at a loss, because their earnings report <28nm category has been increasing profit. I suggest sticking to the SemiAnalysis report, honestly. Asianometry has no additional information, and the video lacks some of it. The rest is going beyond or against the information we have.

bigcat12345678 4y ago

> SMIC is supposedly shipping 7nm chips now. There was a big national security thing to prevent SMIC from getting access to ASML EUV steppers. What's the logic behind the national security thing of SMIC shipping 7nm? By national, which nation is being referred here? I thought technology competition is the best kind of capitalism, right? How is it a national security thing that your competitor is catching up? Isn't that a good thing that capitalism is actually working?

wmf 4y ago
To simplify things a bit, the west has been using globalized capitalism where tech created in the west benefits the whole world but China has been following a more mercantilist style of capitalism where Chinese tech mostly benefits China. Once the US finally realized this they started slowing China down, like restricting EUV.
- bigcat12345678 4y ago
  > whole world but China has been following a more mercantilist style of capitalism where Chinese tech mostly benefits China First time hearing such claim. Mind to provide to some decently-compiled reports on "Chinese capitalism benefiting China mostly"?
  - arroz 4y ago
    I don’t think this is necessarily true, but what is true is that China is increasingly engaging in trade wars against countries that do things they disapprove For instance, China has stopped buying a lot of stuff from Australia because of politics So yeah, I wouldn’t want to rely on China for chips (or anything really, though that is impossible nowadays)
    - bigcat12345678 4y ago
      > engaging in trade wars against countries that do things they disapprove > China has stopped buying a lot of stuff from Australia because of politics They disapprove? That's a fundamentally flawed gloss over an otherwise simple fact: Australia takes a political stance that fundamentally treat China as an enemy, the same way as what the West's stance towards USSR, at a moment China has not taken any political stance like USSR towards the West. Imagine that you frequent a bar, often engaging in chat with all sorts of people. For whatever reason (let's for now not mud the discussion on why some countries decide to take the above mentioned political stance) some guys used to chat normally with you, suddenly reject you altogether, and are plotting to label you an unwelcome person to the bar, so that you are disallowed to enter the bar. Would you start picking the weak guys of this small clique and try to thwart this plot? > I wouldn’t want to rely on China for chips Sure, but you dont need to, you depend on TSMC. And you still not answer the simple question. Given the fact that depending on China for advanced chip manufacturing is security issue, why China herself depend on their own chip manufacturer a national security thing for US? Isn't that a thing has nothing to do with US national security?