8 ms·

What large scale energy storage systems are in operation today, or even ready to be rolled out? I quote myself under another of your comment: > Why does German

by m2fkxy 4y ago

What large scale energy storage systems are in operation today, or even ready to be rolled out? I quote myself under another of your comment: > Why does Germany performs abysmally wrt. electrical production carbon intensity despite having enough wind/solar installed capacity to cover their consumption?

pfdietz 4y ago
Grid connected batteries are being installed all over the place. And now hydrogen storage is being rolled out too. The hydrogen storage project in Delta, Utah could ultimately (when the salt formation there is fully utilized) store enough hydrogen to supply the entire US average grid power demand for 30 hours. BTW, electrolyzers from China are now being sold to the international market for $0.30/W. Their prices are crashing just like PV did. > Germany Some combination of difficulty of dislodging incumbents whose capital cost is sunk, and political implications from parts of society depending on coal mining. They should have been building more renewables, I agree, and it's too bad for them now that they didn't.
- replygirl 4y ago
  the delta project is primarily a natural gas plant for the next 25 years, btw
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    They might be using SMR hydrogen to start with, for demonstration purposes, but doing it with SMR at scale would make absolutely no sense; it would be cheaper and more efficient to store and use the natural gas directly.
    - pfdietz 4y ago
      Ah, I see. You are referring to the turbines burning a 30% H2/70% NG initially. They are still using electrolyzers to make the hydrogen. Going to turbines that burn 100% H2 is not a huge technical obstacle. There are already turbines burning hydrogen, so hydrogen combustors are feasible.
dabber21 4y ago
Because dozens of france's nuclear plants are shutdown for an unexpected maintenance and Germany now has to burn more coal and gas again so france can keep their lights on.
- shakow 4y ago
  Right now, France is importing ~4% of its electricity from Germany: https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/FR https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/FR
cycomanic 4y ago
Germany does not do absymmally. It could actually do much better if not for the coal and nuclear lobby trying to slow down the move towards renewables over the last 20 years. Talking about the regulation argument which people bring up for nuclear. The amount of regulations needed to follow for wind are insane in Germany. Essentially even if you want to put a small (5-10kW) turbine in rural yard you have to become a mini electricity company. Let's not even talk about the Bavaria which have essentially killed off a wind due to regulations that requires huge distances to any dwelling.
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  And that does not even cover the sabotage to storage installation. My brother got solar on the roof of his farm, but is not allowed to use it in the living building, because its a "seperate" household (50 m) away. This years winter, with not enough gas, these companies will cease to be and the state can put an end to those "cornered" market shenanigans.
- shakow 4y ago
  Germany definitely does do abysmally w.r.t. the money they invested: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map https://app.electricitymaps.com/map After billions over billions poured in wind & solar, they have roughly the same carbon-load on their electricity than US, Russia, or the Balkans.
  - cycomanic 4y ago
    Are you color blind? Germany is definitely a lighter shade of brown than the US on average (you should really also use a 5 year not 30 day average), also the amount of "billions" that Germany poured into solar and wind is still significantly below the subsidies that coal received (for largely political reasons), likely as many or more subsidies were also poured into US fossils. It's amazing how all the nuclear proponents spend most of their time arguing against renewables, why is that? Maybe because it is to largely protect the large investments of electricity providers into large fossil and nuclear plants, while solar and wind disrupt these?

by m2fkxy 4y ago

pfdietz 4y ago

Grid connected batteries are being installed all over the place. And now hydrogen storage is being rolled out too. The hydrogen storage project in Delta, Utah could ultimately (when the salt formation there is fully utilized) store enough hydrogen to supply the entire US average grid power demand for 30 hours. BTW, electrolyzers from China are now being sold to the international market for $0.30/W. Their prices are crashing just like PV did. > Germany Some combination of difficulty of dislodging incumbents whose capital cost is sunk, and political implications from parts of society depending on coal mining. They should have been building more renewables, I agree, and it's too bad for them now that they didn't.

replygirl 4y ago
the delta project is primarily a natural gas plant for the next 25 years, btw
- pfdietz 4y ago
  They might be using SMR hydrogen to start with, for demonstration purposes, but doing it with SMR at scale would make absolutely no sense; it would be cheaper and more efficient to store and use the natural gas directly.
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    Ah, I see. You are referring to the turbines burning a 30% H2/70% NG initially. They are still using electrolyzers to make the hydrogen. Going to turbines that burn 100% H2 is not a huge technical obstacle. There are already turbines burning hydrogen, so hydrogen combustors are feasible.

dabber21 4y ago

Because dozens of france's nuclear plants are shutdown for an unexpected maintenance and Germany now has to burn more coal and gas again so france can keep their lights on.

shakow 4y ago
Right now, France is importing ~4% of its electricity from Germany: https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/FR https://app.electricitymaps.com/zone/FR

cycomanic 4y ago

Germany does not do absymmally. It could actually do much better if not for the coal and nuclear lobby trying to slow down the move towards renewables over the last 20 years. Talking about the regulation argument which people bring up for nuclear. The amount of regulations needed to follow for wind are insane in Germany. Essentially even if you want to put a small (5-10kW) turbine in rural yard you have to become a mini electricity company. Let's not even talk about the Bavaria which have essentially killed off a wind due to regulations that requires huge distances to any dwelling.

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
And that does not even cover the sabotage to storage installation. My brother got solar on the roof of his farm, but is not allowed to use it in the living building, because its a "seperate" household (50 m) away. This years winter, with not enough gas, these companies will cease to be and the state can put an end to those "cornered" market shenanigans.
shakow 4y ago
Germany definitely does do abysmally w.r.t. the money they invested: https://app.electricitymaps.com/map https://app.electricitymaps.com/map After billions over billions poured in wind & solar, they have roughly the same carbon-load on their electricity than US, Russia, or the Balkans.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  Are you color blind? Germany is definitely a lighter shade of brown than the US on average (you should really also use a 5 year not 30 day average), also the amount of "billions" that Germany poured into solar and wind is still significantly below the subsidies that coal received (for largely political reasons), likely as many or more subsidies were also poured into US fossils. It's amazing how all the nuclear proponents spend most of their time arguing against renewables, why is that? Maybe because it is to largely protect the large investments of electricity providers into large fossil and nuclear plants, while solar and wind disrupt these?