8 ms·

How is it a different story? Those wires still need to terminate and will oxidize at the connections and produce a lot of heat.

Ottolay 4y ago
You can take precautions to avoid the oxidation. This is already done reliably on airplanes and in overhead power distribution, where aluminum wire is the standard.
- lazide 4y ago
  Which is relatively expensive and error prone, compared to copper connections. For service connections and large scale power distribution where trained professionals are already required and lack of maintenance is already a fire hazard, it isn't a problem. For small branch circuits where work is often done by random Joe's and where any sort of preventative maintenance is few and far between, it is a failed experiment.
  - strbean 4y ago
    Assuming copper prices continue to outpace aluminum prices, eventually copper will be the expensive option vs. aluminum (done right). Not sure if the error prone aspect could be remedied though.
    - lazide 4y ago
      Compared to electrician labor? It would have to be price at silver prices to matter; most likely. Either way, home and commercial construction is likely to crater (already starting in many areas) due to cost of $$ going up, so that should help tamp down demand quite a bit.
Cerium 4y ago
In addition to the other mentioned reasons, larger gauge wire is commonly terminated in blocks rather than at end points and likely won't be touched after initial installation, compared with branch circuits which will have their outlets or switches changed multiple times and often without professional assistance.
amluto 4y ago
https://iaeimagazine.org/features/aluminum-building-wire-installation-and-terminations/ https://iaeimagazine.org/features/aluminum-building-wire-ins...
sgc 4y ago
The problem was not the oxidation. That problem is easily dealt with by applying antioxidant paste at the wire terminations, as is required. The problem was single strand solid conductor aluminum wiring. Higher capacity wires are multistrand, and virtually all such wiring is aluminum due to the cost difference. Single strand solid aluminum conductors expand and contract due to heat changes from high draw, they can work themselves loose, and eventually create shorts and fires. They make special connectors so you can remedy this by attaching a small piece of copper wire (a pigtail) to the aluminum, and don't need to replace all the wiring in your house. This of course means that we could just legislate for better connectors throughout the building, as we should do anyways, and we could safely use single strand solid conductor aluminum wiring instead of copper virtually everywhere.
- eru 4y ago
  Not sure why you'd need any legislation? The higher insurance premiums already send exactly the right incentives, don't they?
  - kortilla 4y ago
    When you’re a hammer, all you see are nails.
    - eru 4y ago
      Most people are not regulators by trade, yet they see a lot of need for regulation.
      - kortilla 4y ago
        If you live in a representative democracy and vote for politicians that expand regulations, you are effectively regulating. > yet they see a lot of need for regulation Of course they do, their ideology reaches for that solution by default. Look at this particular thread just to see how misguided the recommendation for regulation was in this case.
ars 4y ago
That's actually myth. Widely believed, but not actually true. The aluminum wires of today are a different allow of that simply does not have the problem anymore. It's a solved issue. You don't even need anti-ox on the connection.
- lazide 4y ago
  Not according to code around here in CA? Not that you can buy small gauge aluminum wiring anyway.
  - smolder 4y ago
    Building code is not a standard by which to judge possible practices, it just formalizes the normal approach to prevent halfassery. (And arguably, to prevent disruption of established businesses in a regulatory capture kinda way.)
    - lazide 4y ago
      Building code defines what is legal in a jurisdiction - it’s 99% of actual practice. We can discuss the theory behind changing it of course, it just isn’t material to the field until the rules change.
      - smolder 4y ago
        This doesn't contradict what I said.
        lazide 4y ago
        It does, as you are not providing useful enough evidence to contradict the Chesterton’s fence situation we are in. There are real reasons the benefits (right now) do not outweigh the known hazards (right now). If you have new evidence to add that you believe does, then please do. But so far, not seeing it.
- smolder 4y ago

Ottolay 4y ago

You can take precautions to avoid the oxidation. This is already done reliably on airplanes and in overhead power distribution, where aluminum wire is the standard.

lazide 4y ago
Which is relatively expensive and error prone, compared to copper connections. For service connections and large scale power distribution where trained professionals are already required and lack of maintenance is already a fire hazard, it isn't a problem. For small branch circuits where work is often done by random Joe's and where any sort of preventative maintenance is few and far between, it is a failed experiment.
- strbean 4y ago
  Assuming copper prices continue to outpace aluminum prices, eventually copper will be the expensive option vs. aluminum (done right). Not sure if the error prone aspect could be remedied though.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Compared to electrician labor? It would have to be price at silver prices to matter; most likely. Either way, home and commercial construction is likely to crater (already starting in many areas) due to cost of $$ going up, so that should help tamp down demand quite a bit.

Cerium 4y ago

In addition to the other mentioned reasons, larger gauge wire is commonly terminated in blocks rather than at end points and likely won't be touched after initial installation, compared with branch circuits which will have their outlets or switches changed multiple times and often without professional assistance.

amluto 4y ago

https://iaeimagazine.org/features/aluminum-building-wire-installation-and-terminations/ https://iaeimagazine.org/features/aluminum-building-wire-ins...

sgc 4y ago

The problem was not the oxidation. That problem is easily dealt with by applying antioxidant paste at the wire terminations, as is required. The problem was single strand solid conductor aluminum wiring. Higher capacity wires are multistrand, and virtually all such wiring is aluminum due to the cost difference. Single strand solid aluminum conductors expand and contract due to heat changes from high draw, they can work themselves loose, and eventually create shorts and fires. They make special connectors so you can remedy this by attaching a small piece of copper wire (a pigtail) to the aluminum, and don't need to replace all the wiring in your house. This of course means that we could just legislate for better connectors throughout the building, as we should do anyways, and we could safely use single strand solid conductor aluminum wiring instead of copper virtually everywhere.

eru 4y ago
Not sure why you'd need any legislation? The higher insurance premiums already send exactly the right incentives, don't they?
- kortilla 4y ago
  When you’re a hammer, all you see are nails.
  - eru 4y ago
    Most people are not regulators by trade, yet they see a lot of need for regulation.
    - kortilla 4y ago
      If you live in a representative democracy and vote for politicians that expand regulations, you are effectively regulating. > yet they see a lot of need for regulation Of course they do, their ideology reaches for that solution by default. Look at this particular thread just to see how misguided the recommendation for regulation was in this case.

ars 4y ago

That's actually myth. Widely believed, but not actually true. The aluminum wires of today are a different allow of that simply does not have the problem anymore. It's a solved issue. You don't even need anti-ox on the connection.

lazide 4y ago
Not according to code around here in CA? Not that you can buy small gauge aluminum wiring anyway.
- smolder 4y ago
  Building code is not a standard by which to judge possible practices, it just formalizes the normal approach to prevent halfassery. (And arguably, to prevent disruption of established businesses in a regulatory capture kinda way.)
  - lazide 4y ago
    Building code defines what is legal in a jurisdiction - it’s 99% of actual practice. We can discuss the theory behind changing it of course, it just isn’t material to the field until the rules change.
    - smolder 4y ago
      This doesn't contradict what I said.
      - lazide 4y ago
        It does, as you are not providing useful enough evidence to contradict the Chesterton’s fence situation we are in. There are real reasons the benefits (right now) do not outweigh the known hazards (right now). If you have new evidence to add that you believe does, then please do. But so far, not seeing it.
smolder 4y ago