4 ms·

That’s because the higher pay comes at the cost of peeing in bottles aka losing human dignity. It feels like there’s no shortage of people out to defend Amazon

That’s because the higher pay comes at the cost of peeing in bottles aka losing human dignity. It feels like there’s no shortage of people out to defend Amazon either.

rowanG077 4y ago
Did you read the comment? It claimed that amazon is not the outlier here.
shepherdjerred 4y ago
If someone is willing to sell their dignity (which I guess is now defined by whether or not you urinate in a bottle) then why should we stop them? We’re not talking about safety or child labor where there’s a moral duty to put up guard rails.
- rtpg 4y ago
  Because what happens is every single company will start doing this in practice. Not to mention that overworking people to the point that they do not believe they can even take a real rest break is a safety issue.
  - shepherdjerred 4y ago
    This already happens at other companies, check the grandparent comment. I have found a few articles which claim Amazon's contracted delivery drivers (which is a pretty sketchy practice tbh) work 14 hour days. 14 hour days aren't great, but I don't think it's particularly stunning. Nurses regularly work 12 hours shifts and often pick up more hours for overtime pay. Truck drivers drive a maximum of 11 hours a day, which is probably pretty close to what Amazon delivery drivers do once you consider time picking up packages and getting up to deliver them. If delivery drivers work ~40 hours a week (~3 days a week on, 4 days off) that sounds like a pretty okay arrangement. If they're working 14 hours a day, 5 days a week, then that's rough. Based on some quick Googling it seems like they target a 40 hour work week, but maybe there are some articles of them being pressured/forced to do more.
- aldebran 4y ago
  As a society we should not create our support creating through inaction an environment where people feel it’s necessary to sell their dignity. Would you agree? Amazon is big enough that it can create systemic problems where free market doesn’t work. If everyone in a town is being run out of business, people feel they have no choice but to take up that job.
  - shepherdjerred 4y ago
    > As a society we should not create our support creating through inaction an environment where people feel it’s necessary to sell their dignity. Would you agree? I would agree, but how do you reconcile that with many desiring legalization of sex work? Surely that is 'worse' than urinating in a bottle? Does Amazon run other local warehouses 'out of business'? I wouldn't imagine there to be much competition between local warehouses unless there was a shortage of labor.
- otikik 4y ago
  Because every time something like that gets accepted, that moves the Overton window down, and makes it easier to take the next step. "What if they want to sell one of their kidneys? They are theirs. What if a little action in the backroom is needed for a promotion? They can always say no". We should be building a better society for future generations, not for a few billionaires.
  - shepherdjerred 4y ago
    > What if they want to sell one of their kidneys? I thought of this specifically when I wrote my comment, which is why I added the bit about "moral duty". Selling your kidneys is harmful. There's the inherent risk of surgery, not to mention it's a part of your body that you would otherwise keep. I think the examples you are giving are things we should protect against, but I do not believe that urinating in a bottle is comparable at all. You're going to urinate no matter what. The only thing different here is where it is at. Many people choose to go camping and urinate outdoors. Most choose a toilet. Some people (even those that aren't on the clock at an Orwellian-esque company!) choose a bottle when they are desperate, e.g. on a road trip.
- jjulius 4y ago
  >If someone is willing... I'm gonna stop you right there and point out that while nobody ever puts a gun to one's head when it comes to taking a job, it's never that cut and dry. They may not normally be willing, but they may be desperate enough under the right circumstances. That desperation, hell even willingness in and of itself, doesn't justify on-the-job abuses.
  - shepherdjerred 4y ago
    I think that there might be some disconnect here. I personally wouldn't want to urinate in a bottle, but it really isn't that big of a deal to me. It's gross, but not something I'd really care about if it meant I got paid decently. There are also purpose-made products for camping that turn urine into a gel. Of course I say this as a software engineer, so I'm very privileged and probably a bit disconnected from the choices these workers have to make.
edmcnulty101 4y ago
Does any job have dignity anymore? I'm a white guy on a team of a all Indian developers and I spend half of my time kissing butt to fit in, just so I can get the basic information I need to do my job. Before that I was a truck driver and peed in a bottle and that actually had more dignity then kissing butt all day. Single moms useing only fans to keep paying these skyrocketing rents. They literally made half the work force submit to experimental vaccines or get fired. This is 2022 America. There's no such thing as work place dignity in the majority of jobs anymore.

That’s because the higher pay comes at the cost of peeing in bottles aka losing human dignity. It feels like there’s no shortage of people out to defend Amazon either.

rowanG077 4y ago

Did you read the comment? It claimed that amazon is not the outlier here.

shepherdjerred 4y ago

If someone is willing to sell their dignity (which I guess is now defined by whether or not you urinate in a bottle) then why should we stop them? We’re not talking about safety or child labor where there’s a moral duty to put up guard rails.

rtpg 4y ago
Because what happens is every single company will start doing this in practice. Not to mention that overworking people to the point that they do not believe they can even take a real rest break is a safety issue.
- shepherdjerred 4y ago
  This already happens at other companies, check the grandparent comment. I have found a few articles which claim Amazon's contracted delivery drivers (which is a pretty sketchy practice tbh) work 14 hour days. 14 hour days aren't great, but I don't think it's particularly stunning. Nurses regularly work 12 hours shifts and often pick up more hours for overtime pay. Truck drivers drive a maximum of 11 hours a day, which is probably pretty close to what Amazon delivery drivers do once you consider time picking up packages and getting up to deliver them. If delivery drivers work ~40 hours a week (~3 days a week on, 4 days off) that sounds like a pretty okay arrangement. If they're working 14 hours a day, 5 days a week, then that's rough. Based on some quick Googling it seems like they target a 40 hour work week, but maybe there are some articles of them being pressured/forced to do more.
aldebran 4y ago
As a society we should not create our support creating through inaction an environment where people feel it’s necessary to sell their dignity. Would you agree? Amazon is big enough that it can create systemic problems where free market doesn’t work. If everyone in a town is being run out of business, people feel they have no choice but to take up that job.
- shepherdjerred 4y ago
  > As a society we should not create our support creating through inaction an environment where people feel it’s necessary to sell their dignity. Would you agree? I would agree, but how do you reconcile that with many desiring legalization of sex work? Surely that is 'worse' than urinating in a bottle? Does Amazon run other local warehouses 'out of business'? I wouldn't imagine there to be much competition between local warehouses unless there was a shortage of labor.
otikik 4y ago
Because every time something like that gets accepted, that moves the Overton window down, and makes it easier to take the next step. "What if they want to sell one of their kidneys? They are theirs. What if a little action in the backroom is needed for a promotion? They can always say no". We should be building a better society for future generations, not for a few billionaires.
- shepherdjerred 4y ago
  > What if they want to sell one of their kidneys? I thought of this specifically when I wrote my comment, which is why I added the bit about "moral duty". Selling your kidneys is harmful. There's the inherent risk of surgery, not to mention it's a part of your body that you would otherwise keep. I think the examples you are giving are things we should protect against, but I do not believe that urinating in a bottle is comparable at all. You're going to urinate no matter what. The only thing different here is where it is at. Many people choose to go camping and urinate outdoors. Most choose a toilet. Some people (even those that aren't on the clock at an Orwellian-esque company!) choose a bottle when they are desperate, e.g. on a road trip.
jjulius 4y ago
>If someone is willing... I'm gonna stop you right there and point out that while nobody ever puts a gun to one's head when it comes to taking a job, it's never that cut and dry. They may not normally be willing, but they may be desperate enough under the right circumstances. That desperation, hell even willingness in and of itself, doesn't justify on-the-job abuses.
- shepherdjerred 4y ago
  I think that there might be some disconnect here. I personally wouldn't want to urinate in a bottle, but it really isn't that big of a deal to me. It's gross, but not something I'd really care about if it meant I got paid decently. There are also purpose-made products for camping that turn urine into a gel. Of course I say this as a software engineer, so I'm very privileged and probably a bit disconnected from the choices these workers have to make.

edmcnulty101 4y ago

Does any job have dignity anymore? I'm a white guy on a team of a all Indian developers and I spend half of my time kissing butt to fit in, just so I can get the basic information I need to do my job. Before that I was a truck driver and peed in a bottle and that actually had more dignity then kissing butt all day. Single moms useing only fans to keep paying these skyrocketing rents. They literally made half the work force submit to experimental vaccines or get fired. This is 2022 America. There's no such thing as work place dignity in the majority of jobs anymore.