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Do you know kubernetes or are you just jumping on the hate train? Can't you argue with that logic against everything remotely complex? If you have people who k

Do you know kubernetes or are you just jumping on the hate train? Can't you argue with that logic against everything remotely complex? If you have people who know how to use it, then why not use it? Would you say the same about complicated engineered car engines?

jmspring 4y ago
He has a point, containers and VMs are not the same.
- k8sToGo 4y ago
  Yes that part is true. I was not referring to that part.
de6u99er 4y ago
> Do you know kubernetes or are you just jumping on the hate train? It seems rather that you don't know what kubernetes is. His comment is justified. You can put your pitchfork back. > Can't you argue with that logic against everything remotely complex? If you have people who know how to use it, then why not use it? Would you say the same about complicated engineered car engines? It seems that you don't understand ehat he's trying to say.
- k8sToGo 4y ago
  >It seems rather that you don't know what kubernetes is. The company, for which I helped migrating to k8s, pays me 6 figures to keep maintaining it, thinks otherwise (also look at my username ;) ). All of our developers love it because it replaced some weird hacked together deployment stuff. Which part do you think he is right or wrong? It just seems that in every thread people moan about k8s. But it seems that it's usually people who are overwhelmed by it, which is a legitimate reason not to use it. But just saying that it's generally bad is what starting to annoy me a bit.
  - packetized 4y ago
    I dare say that it’s annoying you as a result of cognitive dissonance about your employer paying six figures to migrate to it. If you’re being paid well, obviously you’ll be annoyed by concepts contrary to your work. e: edits are hated, but the downvotes prove out: Kubernetes is simply OpenStack for hipsters.
    - actually_a_dog 4y ago
      > It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair.
  - lovehashbrowns 4y ago
    That was pretty much my experience. From a distance, it looks over-engineered. Once I started using it in my personal projects and at work in production, it makes a lot of sense and it’s far easier than people make it out to be. I’m currently helping my employer switch everything to kubernetes and we’re replacing a lot of really, truly over-engineered trash. I will say I do hate yaml but there aren’t a ton of choices, tbh.
  - k8sToDie 4y ago
    Hi - since you're on credentials, I hold CKA, CKAD, and CKS. I have spent my entire Kubernetes career unfucking the people three degrees removed from you who hear advocacy like this and say wow, yeah, the people with gripes about Kubernetes are just moaning and overwhelmed. Meanwhile, a team at an unnamed government agency just allowed Accenture to con them into turning multiplayer Excel, a process which used to take two humans about a week, into an $18 million annual AWS system funded by the U.S. taxpayer. Because of choices-du-jour, including Spark and Kubernetes. It just seems that in every thread people moan about people moaning about Kubernetes and then project their interpretation of what that moaning is after starting from the presupposition that it's moaning. If you'd instead listen to the other side instead of the basically-crypto-advocacy-train-choo-choo of "if you have gripes, you just don't get it," you'd understand the cons a little better. Such as my entire decade of professional Kubernetes consulting being every single computing project, including in the Fortune 500, the Department of Defense, and at second-tier VC startups in the Bay Area, being a complete operational disaster that's bleeding capital like it's free. Capital is no longer free. Read the news. I now wield my certifications to advise against Kubernetes in any capacity because it is a strategic risk unless resourced exactly right and funded exactly right (which is impossible to justify on infra budgets), simply because of the experience I have watching people like you come in, explain to leadership that it's fine, and then ride that salary until it doesn't suit you anymore and leave a system that takes 5-6 FTEs to comfortably administer on whoever gets to pick up the ball. For every comment you see on Hacker News where someone like you is saying "yeah, Kubernetes runs great for us," they're (a) leaving out the operational toil, particularly in the break-fix department where the entire Unix paradigm changes and (b) not realizing that there are five other teams like them that are completely underwater while trying to put out their overengineered tire fire. And remember, nearly every project using Kubernetes is trying to do multiplayer Excel. That's it. And the more we invest in trying to make the world's most overcomplex computing system do that use case even harder, the less we think about "isn't there a simpler way to do all of this from first principles?"
benreesman 4y ago
I actually know k8 as well as another Borg-alike (Tupperware) that actually runs at Borg-like scale. GP is absolutely right that it is insane overkill with no conceivable way to pay back the complexity investment in all but a few niche cases. Working at a FAANG isn’t the only niche where full-Kube makes sense, there are others, but it’s a niche thing, with the niche being roughly: I rack and run physical gear on a limited number of SKUs at “cattle not pets” scale. If you’re on a cloud provider? You’ve already got secure, restartable, restorable, on-demand-growable, discoverable, fail-over-able, imaginary machines a zillion times more robust than any half-assed Borg-alike setup most people would come up with. They’re happy to take your money if you yo dawg like imaginary computers so I put a docker in your Xen VM so you can Kubernetes while you pay me big bucks, but that’s because they’re not running charities.
- FridgeSeal 4y ago
  Ok, let’s agree that K8s is overkill. What commodity tool should I be replacing it with that gives me: * super for heterogenous workloads (web servers, big batch loads, streaming workloads) * autoscaling the workloads * autoscaling the cluster * auto-restarting workloads * basically automatic networking * the ability to have all that without the need to setup separate infrastructure, and to have the orchestrator move workloads around to optimise machine use * the ability to hire people with experience in it already * ability to run stateful workloads, and have disks managed and moved for you * the ability to do all that by just providing a config * the ability to do all that without having to let people have actual access to the machines/OS * per container/workload topology constraints and requirements, that are network and data centre aware, without having to write any code * have access to a wide range of tooling and docs * be able to drop in workloads that automatically handle log collection, etc. without needing to configure each deployment. * ability to swap out Network ingress/reverse proxy without having to redeploy or reconfigure your applications. * ability to drop in any number of tools to do traffic shadowing, mirroring, splits, etc without reconfiguring or redeploying your applications * ability to do all this without your devs needing to be networking experts. * not locked to a specific cloud provider I’m sure there’s tools out there that cover different subsets of those features, there’s probably tools that do all of them and more. K8s isn’t perfect, but it gives you an awful lot for some reasonable tradeoffs. Sure, if you’re deploying a single web-server/app, you shouldn’t bother with all this; and data centre level stuff probably has tools that make these features look like a cute picnic, but many devs I’ve worked with haven’t the capacity, ability or desire to figure that out. > If you’re on a cloud provider? You’ve already got secure, restartable, restorable, on-demand-growable, discoverable, fail-over-able, imaginary machines a zillion times more robust Sure, but you’ve still got to figure out how you want to setup, monitor, configure all of that, then stitch it together and maintain it, and also not get in the way of your main application development. To me, that’s what K8s gives me: I rely on the cloud provider to give me good machines, good networking, good storage primitives, and to heal/replace them when they fail, and K8s gives me a way to use all of that nicely, without needing to build and maintain it myself, and without my applications needing to know everything.
x86x87 4y ago
I know what it is, have worked with k8s, with borg and another half dozend similar systems. Saying that you should use it because people know does not hold water. Also, anecdotally very few people understand k8s (setup and running it). Most people just know how to deploy apps on it (and even there most impressionable are young devs that haven't done things in a preK8s world)

jmspring 4y ago

He has a point, containers and VMs are not the same.

k8sToGo 4y ago
Yes that part is true. I was not referring to that part.

de6u99er 4y ago

> Do you know kubernetes or are you just jumping on the hate train? It seems rather that you don't know what kubernetes is. His comment is justified. You can put your pitchfork back. > Can't you argue with that logic against everything remotely complex? If you have people who know how to use it, then why not use it? Would you say the same about complicated engineered car engines? It seems that you don't understand ehat he's trying to say.

k8sToGo 4y ago
>It seems rather that you don't know what kubernetes is. The company, for which I helped migrating to k8s, pays me 6 figures to keep maintaining it, thinks otherwise (also look at my username ;) ). All of our developers love it because it replaced some weird hacked together deployment stuff. Which part do you think he is right or wrong? It just seems that in every thread people moan about k8s. But it seems that it's usually people who are overwhelmed by it, which is a legitimate reason not to use it. But just saying that it's generally bad is what starting to annoy me a bit.
- packetized 4y ago
  I dare say that it’s annoying you as a result of cognitive dissonance about your employer paying six figures to migrate to it. If you’re being paid well, obviously you’ll be annoyed by concepts contrary to your work. e: edits are hated, but the downvotes prove out: Kubernetes is simply OpenStack for hipsters.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    > It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. - Upton Sinclair.
- lovehashbrowns 4y ago
  That was pretty much my experience. From a distance, it looks over-engineered. Once I started using it in my personal projects and at work in production, it makes a lot of sense and it’s far easier than people make it out to be. I’m currently helping my employer switch everything to kubernetes and we’re replacing a lot of really, truly over-engineered trash. I will say I do hate yaml but there aren’t a ton of choices, tbh.
- k8sToDie 4y ago
  Hi - since you're on credentials, I hold CKA, CKAD, and CKS. I have spent my entire Kubernetes career unfucking the people three degrees removed from you who hear advocacy like this and say wow, yeah, the people with gripes about Kubernetes are just moaning and overwhelmed. Meanwhile, a team at an unnamed government agency just allowed Accenture to con them into turning multiplayer Excel, a process which used to take two humans about a week, into an $18 million annual AWS system funded by the U.S. taxpayer. Because of choices-du-jour, including Spark and Kubernetes. It just seems that in every thread people moan about people moaning about Kubernetes and then project their interpretation of what that moaning is after starting from the presupposition that it's moaning. If you'd instead listen to the other side instead of the basically-crypto-advocacy-train-choo-choo of "if you have gripes, you just don't get it," you'd understand the cons a little better. Such as my entire decade of professional Kubernetes consulting being every single computing project, including in the Fortune 500, the Department of Defense, and at second-tier VC startups in the Bay Area, being a complete operational disaster that's bleeding capital like it's free. Capital is no longer free. Read the news. I now wield my certifications to advise against Kubernetes in any capacity because it is a strategic risk unless resourced exactly right and funded exactly right (which is impossible to justify on infra budgets), simply because of the experience I have watching people like you come in, explain to leadership that it's fine, and then ride that salary until it doesn't suit you anymore and leave a system that takes 5-6 FTEs to comfortably administer on whoever gets to pick up the ball. For every comment you see on Hacker News where someone like you is saying "yeah, Kubernetes runs great for us," they're (a) leaving out the operational toil, particularly in the break-fix department where the entire Unix paradigm changes and (b) not realizing that there are five other teams like them that are completely underwater while trying to put out their overengineered tire fire. And remember, nearly every project using Kubernetes is trying to do multiplayer Excel. That's it. And the more we invest in trying to make the world's most overcomplex computing system do that use case even harder, the less we think about "isn't there a simpler way to do all of this from first principles?"

benreesman 4y ago

I actually know k8 as well as another Borg-alike (Tupperware) that actually runs at Borg-like scale. GP is absolutely right that it is insane overkill with no conceivable way to pay back the complexity investment in all but a few niche cases. Working at a FAANG isn’t the only niche where full-Kube makes sense, there are others, but it’s a niche thing, with the niche being roughly: I rack and run physical gear on a limited number of SKUs at “cattle not pets” scale. If you’re on a cloud provider? You’ve already got secure, restartable, restorable, on-demand-growable, discoverable, fail-over-able, imaginary machines a zillion times more robust than any half-assed Borg-alike setup most people would come up with. They’re happy to take your money if you yo dawg like imaginary computers so I put a docker in your Xen VM so you can Kubernetes while you pay me big bucks, but that’s because they’re not running charities.

FridgeSeal 4y ago
Ok, let’s agree that K8s is overkill. What commodity tool should I be replacing it with that gives me: * super for heterogenous workloads (web servers, big batch loads, streaming workloads) * autoscaling the workloads * autoscaling the cluster * auto-restarting workloads * basically automatic networking * the ability to have all that without the need to setup separate infrastructure, and to have the orchestrator move workloads around to optimise machine use * the ability to hire people with experience in it already * ability to run stateful workloads, and have disks managed and moved for you * the ability to do all that by just providing a config * the ability to do all that without having to let people have actual access to the machines/OS * per container/workload topology constraints and requirements, that are network and data centre aware, without having to write any code * have access to a wide range of tooling and docs * be able to drop in workloads that automatically handle log collection, etc. without needing to configure each deployment. * ability to swap out Network ingress/reverse proxy without having to redeploy or reconfigure your applications. * ability to drop in any number of tools to do traffic shadowing, mirroring, splits, etc without reconfiguring or redeploying your applications * ability to do all this without your devs needing to be networking experts. * not locked to a specific cloud provider I’m sure there’s tools out there that cover different subsets of those features, there’s probably tools that do all of them and more. K8s isn’t perfect, but it gives you an awful lot for some reasonable tradeoffs. Sure, if you’re deploying a single web-server/app, you shouldn’t bother with all this; and data centre level stuff probably has tools that make these features look like a cute picnic, but many devs I’ve worked with haven’t the capacity, ability or desire to figure that out. > If you’re on a cloud provider? You’ve already got secure, restartable, restorable, on-demand-growable, discoverable, fail-over-able, imaginary machines a zillion times more robust Sure, but you’ve still got to figure out how you want to setup, monitor, configure all of that, then stitch it together and maintain it, and also not get in the way of your main application development. To me, that’s what K8s gives me: I rely on the cloud provider to give me good machines, good networking, good storage primitives, and to heal/replace them when they fail, and K8s gives me a way to use all of that nicely, without needing to build and maintain it myself, and without my applications needing to know everything.

x86x87 4y ago

I know what it is, have worked with k8s, with borg and another half dozend similar systems. Saying that you should use it because people know does not hold water. Also, anecdotally very few people understand k8s (setup and running it). Most people just know how to deploy apps on it (and even there most impressionable are young devs that haven't done things in a preK8s world)