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I've been a big fan of Citroëns for a long time, but I cannot quite get the 2CV. I get it's cute, but I think the Dyane is actually cuter. I can see how it li

by Svip 4y ago

I've been a big fan of Citroëns for a long time, but I cannot quite get the 2CV. I get it's cute, but I think the Dyane is actually cuter. I can see how it lives up to André Citroën's 1930s vision, but what has always truly captured me is the engineering in the hydropneumatic suspension. Fortunately, my first car was (and is) a Citroën DS 23. I have not tried Citroën's new suspension (seems to be limited so far to the kind of car, I don't particularly care for), partly because I've grown disgruntled with Citroën since about the time PSA (or whatever they are called now) started the DS brand, but I really ought to.

jacquesm 4y ago
The 2CV makes perfect sense if you look at why it was designed: 'an umbrella with wheels'. The Dyane is much better as a car but it was also a bit more expensive and people really loved the 2CV for its lines and thought the Dyane to be too blockish. My second car was a DS (a DS 21 to be precise), I loved it and ended up touring the former east bloc with it (and ended up living in Poland because of it).
- Svip 4y ago
  Was your DS 21 pre- or post-1968? Basically, did it have the red or the green fluid? I once drove mine from Denmark to Provence and back again, it was an experience, and not without problems (it started to leak around Paris). I am not sure I would make that big of a trip in it again (although, some part of me hopes I will). Since those days, I've mostly made the big trips in my '98 Xantia.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Green. It was one of the latest made (1974). I've done plenty of really long trips with it (many thousands of km), but I did replace all of the accessible high pressure LHM tubing at some point to get rid of the periodical 'Arret!' light on the dash because the system lost pressure. I can also tell you from experience that trying to drive a DS without pressure is both an art and a body building exercise at once. Xantia is a great compromise between 'modern' and 'old fashioned', a bit plasticy but the one I had I drove into the ground over many 100's of thousands of km. The final nail in that particular coffin was to lose the headgasket somewhere between Munich and NL and just continuing the trip, it even got decent fuel economy but it wouldn't start up after being shut down and once we looked into the engine it was declared a miracle that it made it all the way back. Great car, all around and given the distances covered ultra reliable. The real problem in the DS model is the semi-automatic gearbox which is super finicky regarding hydraulics levels (you'll notice a ticking sound when it is trying to engage and can't quite make it due to a lack of fluid, you can temporarily fix that under the hood by forcibly actuating it but driving it like that is really not recommended. Nor is driving it when one of your drive shafts breaks and you block up that side of the drive train. Nice low engine revs though, we jokingly called it 'economy mode'. I also had an ID-19, a simpler but altogether far more robust car.
    - jet_32951 4y ago
      That sound from the Citromatic used to be called 'boinking' and it is inescapable unless the fluids and seals are up to snuff. Citroën hydraulics are detailed but not that complex, patience + Viton aftermarket seals (green fluid = hexylene glycol) are your friends. Agreed that the ID (idée)-19 had a lot of advantages from its simplicity.
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        > Citroën hydraulics are detailed but not that complex Have a look behind the left hand front wheel cover panel and say that again :) There has to be at least 50 meters worth of high pressure line behind there and a functional analog computer using hydraulics. That's what keeps the car balanced front/back and left/right. The height adjusters just do the static balancing for load, that thing on the left front does it dynamically with a response time in the 10's of milliseconds and keeps continuous track of what 'level' means to the car occupants. It is a very impressive piece of engineering which has some components that will leave you completely puzzled (a tube with a few hundred metal plates in it with a tiny hole through the middle, for instance) if you don't know what they are for.
    - Svip 4y ago
      My mechanic also tells me I'm fortunate that my DS is a five speed manual. No semi-automatic gearbox for me. Also makes the engine bay a lot more accessible (although it is injection). So far, I've replaced the headgasket, cylinders, water pump and injection distributor (with one that achieves lower revs in neutral). The engine repairs were substantial, since water had leaked into one of the cylinders, but it was possible, and now it just starts when I turn the key. My Xantia is the Activa V6 model. That ES9 engine is a beast. I've been told that it's usually the car, not the engine, that breaks first with those ones. But really, what I was more interested in was the Activa suspension. It feels like driving a go-kart, yet with the suspension of a Bentley, and the practicality of a hatchback. I know they were trying the same sort of anti-body roll for the DS back in the 1960s, but money was always running out (unfortunately, I cannot seem to find the pictures, I know they exist online somewhere). I intend to keep my Xantia around for a long time. Took it to the US once, and drove from coast to coast and back again.

by Svip 4y ago

jacquesm 4y ago

The 2CV makes perfect sense if you look at why it was designed: 'an umbrella with wheels'. The Dyane is much better as a car but it was also a bit more expensive and people really loved the 2CV for its lines and thought the Dyane to be too blockish. My second car was a DS (a DS 21 to be precise), I loved it and ended up touring the former east bloc with it (and ended up living in Poland because of it).

Svip 4y ago
Was your DS 21 pre- or post-1968? Basically, did it have the red or the green fluid? I once drove mine from Denmark to Provence and back again, it was an experience, and not without problems (it started to leak around Paris). I am not sure I would make that big of a trip in it again (although, some part of me hopes I will). Since those days, I've mostly made the big trips in my '98 Xantia.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Green. It was one of the latest made (1974). I've done plenty of really long trips with it (many thousands of km), but I did replace all of the accessible high pressure LHM tubing at some point to get rid of the periodical 'Arret!' light on the dash because the system lost pressure. I can also tell you from experience that trying to drive a DS without pressure is both an art and a body building exercise at once. Xantia is a great compromise between 'modern' and 'old fashioned', a bit plasticy but the one I had I drove into the ground over many 100's of thousands of km. The final nail in that particular coffin was to lose the headgasket somewhere between Munich and NL and just continuing the trip, it even got decent fuel economy but it wouldn't start up after being shut down and once we looked into the engine it was declared a miracle that it made it all the way back. Great car, all around and given the distances covered ultra reliable. The real problem in the DS model is the semi-automatic gearbox which is super finicky regarding hydraulics levels (you'll notice a ticking sound when it is trying to engage and can't quite make it due to a lack of fluid, you can temporarily fix that under the hood by forcibly actuating it but driving it like that is really not recommended. Nor is driving it when one of your drive shafts breaks and you block up that side of the drive train. Nice low engine revs though, we jokingly called it 'economy mode'. I also had an ID-19, a simpler but altogether far more robust car.
  - jet_32951 4y ago
    That sound from the Citromatic used to be called 'boinking' and it is inescapable unless the fluids and seals are up to snuff. Citroën hydraulics are detailed but not that complex, patience + Viton aftermarket seals (green fluid = hexylene glycol) are your friends. Agreed that the ID (idée)-19 had a lot of advantages from its simplicity.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      > Citroën hydraulics are detailed but not that complex Have a look behind the left hand front wheel cover panel and say that again :) There has to be at least 50 meters worth of high pressure line behind there and a functional analog computer using hydraulics. That's what keeps the car balanced front/back and left/right. The height adjusters just do the static balancing for load, that thing on the left front does it dynamically with a response time in the 10's of milliseconds and keeps continuous track of what 'level' means to the car occupants. It is a very impressive piece of engineering which has some components that will leave you completely puzzled (a tube with a few hundred metal plates in it with a tiny hole through the middle, for instance) if you don't know what they are for.
  - Svip 4y ago
    My mechanic also tells me I'm fortunate that my DS is a five speed manual. No semi-automatic gearbox for me. Also makes the engine bay a lot more accessible (although it is injection). So far, I've replaced the headgasket, cylinders, water pump and injection distributor (with one that achieves lower revs in neutral). The engine repairs were substantial, since water had leaked into one of the cylinders, but it was possible, and now it just starts when I turn the key. My Xantia is the Activa V6 model. That ES9 engine is a beast. I've been told that it's usually the car, not the engine, that breaks first with those ones. But really, what I was more interested in was the Activa suspension. It feels like driving a go-kart, yet with the suspension of a Bentley, and the practicality of a hatchback. I know they were trying the same sort of anti-body roll for the DS back in the 1960s, but money was always running out (unfortunately, I cannot seem to find the pictures, I know they exist online somewhere). I intend to keep my Xantia around for a long time. Took it to the US once, and drove from coast to coast and back again.