5 ms·

This is one of the most clear examples of bias in favor of leftism that I've seen on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_marxism https://en.wikipe

by chjj 4y ago

This is one of the most clear examples of bias in favor of leftism that I've seen on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_marxism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_marxism > The term "Cultural Marxism" refers to a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory which claims that Western Marxism is the basis of continuing academic and intellectual efforts to subvert Western culture. I feel like a lot of actual marxists would disagree with this statement. People like Antonio Gramsci, who basically laid the foundations for cultural marxism in the early 20th century. Oddly, if you read about Antonio Gramsci on wikipedia, they all but call him a cultural marxist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Gramsci > Gramsci is best known for his theory of cultural hegemony, which describes how the state and ruling capitalist class – the bourgeoisie – use cultural institutions to maintain power in capitalist societies. Also, the last time I looked at the cultural marxism article, it simply said a "far-right conspiracy theory". Now they've somehow managed to roll up antisemitism in there too. Apparently it became antisemitic in just the past year or two!

cmeacham98 4y ago
Just because they use the term "cultural" on Anotonio Gramsci's page doesn't make him part of "continuing academic and intellectual efforts to subvert Western culture". Can you substantiate that claim, or is that just made up? > Also, the last time I looked at the cultural marxism article, it simply said a "far-right conspiracy theory". Now they've somehow managed to roll up antisemitism in there too. Apparently it became antisemitic in just the past year or two! This is the first ever revision of the article that isn't simply a redirect, and it contains the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory&oldid=977850473 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_...
- chjj 4y ago
  Antonio Gramsci asserted that the reason Marx's predictions of late-stage capitalism never came to fruition was due to cultural institutions propping up capitalism. He states very clearly that the (new) objective of marxism should be to establish a counter-hegemony within the existing cultural hegemony, thereby subverting it. This is all present in Gramsci's prison notebooks[1] and is common knowledge to anyone who has ever studied marxist intellectual literature at any length. I find it ridiculous that wikipedia would claim this is a "conspiracy theory". Marxists speak about this _very_ candidly in their writings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Notebooks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Notebooks
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    This still does not provide any proof for the claim. Of course Marxists want to promote their ideology, even culturally. Nobody denies this. The claim made by people using the term "Cultural Marxism", and the reason it is a conspiracy theory, is that said Marxists do so for the purpose of destroying Western culture. Again, to be clear: I am not asking for proof that Marxists promoted Marxism (obviously they did), but that they did so "to subvert Western culture".
    - chjj 4y ago
      Again, Gramsci and later followers of Gramsci advocated infiltrating cultural institutions and establishing a counter-hegemony to subvert the existing cultural hegemony. That should be enough to satisfy anyone's definition of cultural marxism. Read Gramsci or any other cultural marxist if you want proof. edit: I'll also point out that Mao's cultural revolution in China was the first implementation of Gramsci's vision of cultural marxism. There's no way to know whether Mao had ever read Gramsci, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      Proof of what claim dude? That actual Marxist have cultural theories and thus the term “cultural Marxism” is a description of things other than a conspiracy theory? I’m not sure what you’re arguing against at this point.
      - magicalist 4y ago
        > That actual Marxist have cultural theories and thus the term “cultural Marxism” is a description of things other than a conspiracy theory I think you're just looking for the pretty different https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_cultural_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_cultural_analysis with that description.
        edgyquant 4y ago
        Right, the point is that the main article links only to the conspiracy theory and not that article. If it linked to that article people hearing e.g. Jordan Peterson use the term and then googling might be given a history of Marxist theory being applied to culture. Instead they see only that it’s an anti-Semitic right wing conspiracy theory. It’s made worse by the fact that “Marxist cultural analysis” is mentioned in the second paragraph on the “main” conspiracy page but not as a link. Regardless of belief, and I’m by no means a right winger, do you not see how this will sway the opinion of anyone who googled the term cultural Marxism?
magicalist 4y ago
> Also, the last time I looked at the cultural marxism article, it simply said a "far-right conspiracy theory". Now they've somehow managed to roll up antisemitism in there too. Apparently it became antisemitic in just the past year or two! It's been there as long as the article has (almost two years)[1] and was on the Frankfurt School subsection on the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory for the last 3.5 years[2], so you've off by a while there. Even before that you can read about how "blacks, students, feminist women, and homosexuals" are the vanguard but its roots are in the anti-semitic criticism of the Frankfurt school, apparently peddled at, for instance, a Holocaust denial conference 20 years ago[3]. I'm not an expert on the subject but doesn't seem recent or much of a stretch to me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory&oldid=977850473 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frankfurt_School&type=revision&diff=878868870&oldid=878867462 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frankfurt_School&... [3] https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2002/ally-christian-right-heavyweight-paul-weyrich-addresses-holocaust-denial-conference https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/...
- chjj 4y ago
  > It's been there as long as the article has (almost two years)[1] Yes. This was already pointed out. I was mistaken about the antisemitic part not being there earlier. > its roots are in the anti-semitic criticism of the Frankfurt school I would have said its criticism is rooted in the fact that Mao rose to power through cultural subversion and is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. > apparently peddled at, for instance, a Holocaust denial conference 20 years ago Interesting that is brought up. To deny the existence of cultural marxism, IMO, is akin to holocaust denial.
  - magicalist 4y ago
    >> its roots are in the anti-semitic criticism of the Frankfurt school > I would have said its criticism is rooted in the fact that Mao rose to power through cultural subversion and is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. It seems like maybe you're just hung up on definitions and/or the inclusion of "cultural" here? It sounds a lot like you're just looking for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Marxism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Marxism and its various offshoots. The wikipedia article for a specific set of critiques of Marxism from a bunch of racists is not a good base article for a general/systematic critique of Marxism.

by chjj 4y ago

cmeacham98 4y ago

Just because they use the term "cultural" on Anotonio Gramsci's page doesn't make him part of "continuing academic and intellectual efforts to subvert Western culture". Can you substantiate that claim, or is that just made up? > Also, the last time I looked at the cultural marxism article, it simply said a "far-right conspiracy theory". Now they've somehow managed to roll up antisemitism in there too. Apparently it became antisemitic in just the past year or two! This is the first ever revision of the article that isn't simply a redirect, and it contains the term: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory&oldid=977850473 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_...

chjj 4y ago
Antonio Gramsci asserted that the reason Marx's predictions of late-stage capitalism never came to fruition was due to cultural institutions propping up capitalism. He states very clearly that the (new) objective of marxism should be to establish a counter-hegemony within the existing cultural hegemony, thereby subverting it. This is all present in Gramsci's prison notebooks[1] and is common knowledge to anyone who has ever studied marxist intellectual literature at any length. I find it ridiculous that wikipedia would claim this is a "conspiracy theory". Marxists speak about this _very_ candidly in their writings. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Notebooks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_Notebooks
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  This still does not provide any proof for the claim. Of course Marxists want to promote their ideology, even culturally. Nobody denies this. The claim made by people using the term "Cultural Marxism", and the reason it is a conspiracy theory, is that said Marxists do so for the purpose of destroying Western culture. Again, to be clear: I am not asking for proof that Marxists promoted Marxism (obviously they did), but that they did so "to subvert Western culture".
  - chjj 4y ago
    Again, Gramsci and later followers of Gramsci advocated infiltrating cultural institutions and establishing a counter-hegemony to subvert the existing cultural hegemony. That should be enough to satisfy anyone's definition of cultural marxism. Read Gramsci or any other cultural marxist if you want proof. edit: I'll also point out that Mao's cultural revolution in China was the first implementation of Gramsci's vision of cultural marxism. There's no way to know whether Mao had ever read Gramsci, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    Proof of what claim dude? That actual Marxist have cultural theories and thus the term “cultural Marxism” is a description of things other than a conspiracy theory? I’m not sure what you’re arguing against at this point.
    - magicalist 4y ago
      > That actual Marxist have cultural theories and thus the term “cultural Marxism” is a description of things other than a conspiracy theory I think you're just looking for the pretty different https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_cultural_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist_cultural_analysis with that description.
      - edgyquant 4y ago
        Right, the point is that the main article links only to the conspiracy theory and not that article. If it linked to that article people hearing e.g. Jordan Peterson use the term and then googling might be given a history of Marxist theory being applied to culture. Instead they see only that it’s an anti-Semitic right wing conspiracy theory. It’s made worse by the fact that “Marxist cultural analysis” is mentioned in the second paragraph on the “main” conspiracy page but not as a link. Regardless of belief, and I’m by no means a right winger, do you not see how this will sway the opinion of anyone who googled the term cultural Marxism?

magicalist 4y ago

> Also, the last time I looked at the cultural marxism article, it simply said a "far-right conspiracy theory". Now they've somehow managed to roll up antisemitism in there too. Apparently it became antisemitic in just the past year or two! It's been there as long as the article has (almost two years)[1] and was on the Frankfurt School subsection on the Cultural Marxism conspiracy theory for the last 3.5 years[2], so you've off by a while there. Even before that you can read about how "blacks, students, feminist women, and homosexuals" are the vanguard but its roots are in the anti-semitic criticism of the Frankfurt school, apparently peddled at, for instance, a Holocaust denial conference 20 years ago[3]. I'm not an expert on the subject but doesn't seem recent or much of a stretch to me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory&oldid=977850473 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cultural_Marxism_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frankfurt_School&type=revision&diff=878868870&oldid=878867462 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Frankfurt_School&... [3] https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2002/ally-christian-right-heavyweight-paul-weyrich-addresses-holocaust-denial-conference https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/...

chjj 4y ago
> It's been there as long as the article has (almost two years)[1] Yes. This was already pointed out. I was mistaken about the antisemitic part not being there earlier. > its roots are in the anti-semitic criticism of the Frankfurt school I would have said its criticism is rooted in the fact that Mao rose to power through cultural subversion and is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. > apparently peddled at, for instance, a Holocaust denial conference 20 years ago Interesting that is brought up. To deny the existence of cultural marxism, IMO, is akin to holocaust denial.
- magicalist 4y ago
  >> its roots are in the anti-semitic criticism of the Frankfurt school > I would have said its criticism is rooted in the fact that Mao rose to power through cultural subversion and is responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. It seems like maybe you're just hung up on definitions and/or the inclusion of "cultural" here? It sounds a lot like you're just looking for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Marxism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Marxism and its various offshoots. The wikipedia article for a specific set of critiques of Marxism from a bunch of racists is not a good base article for a general/systematic critique of Marxism.