3 ms·

Men are in the same boat if the whole community is focused on raising big families. In traditional communities women do vast majority of children raising. They'

by mantas 4y ago

Men are in the same boat if the whole community is focused on raising big families. In traditional communities women do vast majority of children raising. They're essentially gatekeepers of the culture. If the community wanted to reject the culture, women are the ones who can bring forward the change. If they want, of course. Sort of like in western world people have no „complete agency“ to refuse consumerist work/buy/die life. Technically they can, but in reality the society is stacked against that. I'd argue that Amish are even more flexible than mainstream. Amish communities kick out the young to explore the world and then return on your own accord. Is mainstream society willing to kick out the kids to live with amishes or something along those lines? As far as I see, with very few exceptions, it's reinforcing the work/buy/die cycle.

lotsofpulp 4y ago
> If the community wanted to reject the culture, women are the ones who can bring forward the change. If they want, of course. How? If they reject it, they then need to go out and find shelter, and food, and income, in a world where they are negotiating with men, more who are all more physically powerful, as well as cognizant of the woman’s lesser negotiating position. I do not know about Amish forcing their young to do non Amish things or whatever, but without a financial nest egg, or otherwise ability to afford security, a woman can easily feel more intimidated about striking it out on their own. Men simply do not have to worry about their physical safety in the same manner.
- mantas 4y ago
  Think long-term. Women handle home stuff and raise kids. Women can raise the next generation of boys and girls however they wish. If they keep propagating existing culture... It's done by women to next generation of women. Most Amish communities do send kids out to explore the world. And looking at other comments, Amish women are usually more adopted to outside world and have modern office skills helping men construction etc businesses. Semi-related... In my post-soviet country, we've a huge problem that women were forced out of home to the workforce in soviet era. Yet men were still sofa kings. Then 90s rolled in with huge unemployment and frequently women were handling both home & working, while men camped on sofas unemployed instead of taking care of the house. Guess who is propagating this culture? Mothers and grandmothers mostly. For decades they treated boys as a special case who should go out and play and they'll clean up the house. With the help of girls, obviously. In my own childhood, it was a recurring conflict. Mom telling me to do cleaning after school. Grandmother not allowing me to do that and kicking out of the house while cleaning herself. And talking around, it's a very common pattern. Also, guess who is talking shit how men are lazy?
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > Women can raise the next generation of boys and girls however they wish. If they keep propagating existing culture... It's done by women to next generation of women. If your claim is that only women are responsible for propagating cultures where women are considered property, require dowry payments, lack women’s rights such as schooling, property rights, voting, driving, etc., then we will have to disagree. I am pretty sure men have something to do with shackling women in certain societies.
    - mantas 4y ago
      Who raises those men?
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Many people. Fathers, mothers, grandparents, other family members, friends, teachers, media, bosses. I do not know where you intend to go with your thoughts, but if you are holding women solely responsible for the way men behave, again, we will have to simply disagree.
        mantas 4y ago
        We're talking traditional societies here. It's mostly homeschooling and media is next-to-non-existant. Kids working parents' farm don't have bosses :) Friends and other family members are raised in the same culture by same women. In very traditional societies, (grand)fathers spend very little time with kids compared to (grand)mothers. Of course it's not just women to blame. Men themselves can bring the change too. But blaming just men is ignoring the elephant in the room. In traditional societies, women do have a crapton of power. It is power in a slightly different sense, but I'd argue that it's much bigger power. In modern world, men and women can easily operate on their own by fixing problems using money. In traditional society... Men are toasted if they loose women. Of course, women do have a damn hard time without men too. But this dependence is mutual.
        4y ago

by mantas 4y ago

lotsofpulp 4y ago

> If the community wanted to reject the culture, women are the ones who can bring forward the change. If they want, of course. How? If they reject it, they then need to go out and find shelter, and food, and income, in a world where they are negotiating with men, more who are all more physically powerful, as well as cognizant of the woman’s lesser negotiating position. I do not know about Amish forcing their young to do non Amish things or whatever, but without a financial nest egg, or otherwise ability to afford security, a woman can easily feel more intimidated about striking it out on their own. Men simply do not have to worry about their physical safety in the same manner.

mantas 4y ago
Think long-term. Women handle home stuff and raise kids. Women can raise the next generation of boys and girls however they wish. If they keep propagating existing culture... It's done by women to next generation of women. Most Amish communities do send kids out to explore the world. And looking at other comments, Amish women are usually more adopted to outside world and have modern office skills helping men construction etc businesses. Semi-related... In my post-soviet country, we've a huge problem that women were forced out of home to the workforce in soviet era. Yet men were still sofa kings. Then 90s rolled in with huge unemployment and frequently women were handling both home & working, while men camped on sofas unemployed instead of taking care of the house. Guess who is propagating this culture? Mothers and grandmothers mostly. For decades they treated boys as a special case who should go out and play and they'll clean up the house. With the help of girls, obviously. In my own childhood, it was a recurring conflict. Mom telling me to do cleaning after school. Grandmother not allowing me to do that and kicking out of the house while cleaning herself. And talking around, it's a very common pattern. Also, guess who is talking shit how men are lazy?
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > Women can raise the next generation of boys and girls however they wish. If they keep propagating existing culture... It's done by women to next generation of women. If your claim is that only women are responsible for propagating cultures where women are considered property, require dowry payments, lack women’s rights such as schooling, property rights, voting, driving, etc., then we will have to disagree. I am pretty sure men have something to do with shackling women in certain societies.
  - mantas 4y ago
    Who raises those men?
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Many people. Fathers, mothers, grandparents, other family members, friends, teachers, media, bosses. I do not know where you intend to go with your thoughts, but if you are holding women solely responsible for the way men behave, again, we will have to simply disagree.
      - mantas 4y ago
        We're talking traditional societies here. It's mostly homeschooling and media is next-to-non-existant. Kids working parents' farm don't have bosses :) Friends and other family members are raised in the same culture by same women. In very traditional societies, (grand)fathers spend very little time with kids compared to (grand)mothers. Of course it's not just women to blame. Men themselves can bring the change too. But blaming just men is ignoring the elephant in the room. In traditional societies, women do have a crapton of power. It is power in a slightly different sense, but I'd argue that it's much bigger power. In modern world, men and women can easily operate on their own by fixing problems using money. In traditional society... Men are toasted if they loose women. Of course, women do have a damn hard time without men too. But this dependence is mutual.
        4y ago