6 ms·

> Over the course of several decades, they must have been making a large integer multiple of the build cost in pure margin while not updating the product. Yup

by Aissen 4y ago

> Over the course of several decades, they must have been making a large integer multiple of the build cost in pure margin while not updating the product. Yup, this is an open secret about calculators: they are basically regulatory capture nowadays, since you can buy much more powerful devices for cheaper. Software used to be an advantage, but the algorithms they use are now common knowledge. You can also use an alternative like NumWorks, that has source-available software and lets you run your own code; they have played the regulation game and have a reset button that allows them to be used at some exams in France, Italy, Netherlands, some US states, etc.

ruph123 4y ago
The NumWorks calculator looks very interesting. Too bad it does not have a RPN mode. Otherwise the SwissMicros calculators can be recommended. They are all RPN and are modeled after iconic HP calcs. They are just very pricey, especially for non-graphing calcs.
- LEARAX 4y ago
  My DM42 broke in under 2 weeks and Swissmicros support was completely unreachable. I would strongly recommend getting a used older HP calculator instead.
  - ericvsmith 4y ago
    I had the exact opposite experience. After already owning a DM42, DM41X, and a DM16L, and I bought a DM12L for a client. The screen had several LCD segments that faintly showed as always on. I wrote an email and was contacted by Michael (the founder) almost immediately. He said they'd happily take it back and send me a new one, but it would take a few weeks for shipping from Europe. Instead he suggested that I first try putting it in the oven at 70C (160F for us 'Mericans) for a few hours. So I disassembled it and put just the PCB/display unit in the oven. And sure enough: problem solved! tl;dr: I thought their service was great. Although I do love my real HP's, too. I own maybe a dozen. I think the 32sII is my favorite, but I dearly miss my 41CV from back in the day. Maybe I should find a used one of those. On the programming side: I definitely agree with those saying calculators were/are an entry to programming. My first programs were on an HP-29c. I thought I had invented binary search!
    - LEARAX 4y ago
      Can I ask when you had this exchange, which email you contacted (I've tried emailing both the support address and the individual addresses) and which email provider you use?
      - ericvsmith 4y ago
        This was in early March 2020 (so, just pre-Covid). I was using orders@swissmicros.com, because I was responding to the invoice they sent me. And I self-host my email server. Hope that helps.
- ranger207 4y ago
  The Omega alternate firmware does have RPN https://getomega.dev/ https://getomega.dev/
projektfu 4y ago
I had the privilege of buying two expensive calculators. First, a TI-85 (1993) and then a new math teacher hired was more familiar with the HP-48G (1995) and had us get one. While fun to use to goof off in class, I felt they were like learning to use a slide rule: obsolete before you bought them. Did the small screen and the over-precise numeric answers give us a better idea of what we were doing than pencil and graph paper? Did it make any students appreciate math subjects more? Having built an RPN evaluator at summer camp, I appreciated that my friends were learning it, too, on the HP-48. In college, I literally never used it. A simple scientific calculator was almost always more useful.
- petee 4y ago
  I'd argue that a sliderule is at least something you can manipulate with your hands and immediately see the output relationship. Tangent, I use a tape measure at work and you can fold it back on itself to make a basic slide rule for quick addition and subtraction without bothering with fractions :)
modeless 4y ago
It is a shame that calculators are stuck in the past for silly regulatory reasons, but there is a silver lining. These relics are excellent machines for learning low level programming without the complexity of modern hardware. You can write C code with essentially no operating system underneath you, read the keyboard I/O registers directly, flip pixels on the screen by writing to the framebuffer pointer, write your own interrupt handlers, etc. There are no other widely available computers this simple anymore, and because of their ubiquity there is still an active hobbyist community making new software. If I was going to make a course on programming I would get every student a calculator and have them write some C on it.
- TimTheTinker 4y ago
  > there is a silver lining. These relics are excellent machines for learning low level programming without the complexity of modern hardware. My thought exactly. Give kids a calculator app for their phone, and I'm positive far fewer would end up writing code for it - and fewer would end up as developers. There's something so cool about writing a little game and showing it to your friends when you're in 9th grade. "Dude, you programmed a game on your calculator?! You're a genius" is so fun to hear at 14 years old.
  - zerocrates 4y ago
    Do you have any knowledge whether there's still much of this going on? I remember futzing around with TI Basic and downloading/sharing more complex games from others... but we didn't have smartphones then. I just wonder to what extent students still care about that stuff today. I suppose there's still some appeal from the "look like you're doing work" factor if nothing else.
    - morninglight 4y ago
      The Raspberry Pi Pico has opened the door to young experimenters thanks to the MMBasic programming language from Geoff Graham. There are several excellent videos that explain the setup and operation. The Pico is actually available for $4. The software and manual (PDF) are free to download. It is super easy to get started - 5 minutes and you're writing software that can solve problems and control I/O. PicoMite: Running BASIC on a Raspberry Pi Pico https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxmjy1nz6MM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxmjy1nz6MM PicoMiteVGA Raspberry Pi Pico Running BASIC on VGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIK1ujslHHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIK1ujslHHI ....
twobitshifter 4y ago
Mine was a hand me down from my older sister. Our public school did have some TI-82s that they lent out for classes, but that wasn’t always the case and the cost of a calculator was certainly a burden on some families.
gamerDude 4y ago
Most of the schools I work with now have their students use Desmos, a free online graphing calculator. So thankfully, we've been moving away from TI.
sascha_sl 4y ago
In some states of Germany they also lobbied for advanced high school courses to require a Voyage 200 (after you already shelled out for a TI-84+). This thing was pricy and the school ended up having a few units to lend out because not everyone could afford them.
int_19h 4y ago
There's one thing that calculators can do that powerful modern gadgets cannot: run on AAA batteries. It doesn't even have to be something as old as TI-83, too. For example, Casio Prizm FX-50 has a color screen, and can be mounted over USB as a storage device. And in terms of hardware power, it's fast enough to run a NES emulator: https://github.com/tswilliamson/nesizm https://github.com/tswilliamson/nesizm. (For the curious, here's a dev wiki for this platform: https://prizm.cemetech.net/index.php/Prizm_Programming_Portal https://prizm.cemetech.net/index.php/Prizm_Programming_Porta...)
Zardoz84 4y ago
Meanwhile, on Spain we can use any cheap Casio calculator (really any calculator).
- Aissen 4y ago
  Even without regulation, there's another aspect to know of: how to use the features of your calculators. If your teacher doesn't know the model, you'll be left learning both new class concepts, and new calculator features on your own. It's entirely doable (I always had my casio graph calculator manual with me through the end of high school), but needs more effort.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Casio rules also on the other side of the Iberian penisula.

by Aissen 4y ago

ruph123 4y ago

The NumWorks calculator looks very interesting. Too bad it does not have a RPN mode. Otherwise the SwissMicros calculators can be recommended. They are all RPN and are modeled after iconic HP calcs. They are just very pricey, especially for non-graphing calcs.

LEARAX 4y ago
My DM42 broke in under 2 weeks and Swissmicros support was completely unreachable. I would strongly recommend getting a used older HP calculator instead.
- ericvsmith 4y ago
  I had the exact opposite experience. After already owning a DM42, DM41X, and a DM16L, and I bought a DM12L for a client. The screen had several LCD segments that faintly showed as always on. I wrote an email and was contacted by Michael (the founder) almost immediately. He said they'd happily take it back and send me a new one, but it would take a few weeks for shipping from Europe. Instead he suggested that I first try putting it in the oven at 70C (160F for us 'Mericans) for a few hours. So I disassembled it and put just the PCB/display unit in the oven. And sure enough: problem solved! tl;dr: I thought their service was great. Although I do love my real HP's, too. I own maybe a dozen. I think the 32sII is my favorite, but I dearly miss my 41CV from back in the day. Maybe I should find a used one of those. On the programming side: I definitely agree with those saying calculators were/are an entry to programming. My first programs were on an HP-29c. I thought I had invented binary search!
  - LEARAX 4y ago
    Can I ask when you had this exchange, which email you contacted (I've tried emailing both the support address and the individual addresses) and which email provider you use?
    - ericvsmith 4y ago
      This was in early March 2020 (so, just pre-Covid). I was using orders@swissmicros.com, because I was responding to the invoice they sent me. And I self-host my email server. Hope that helps.
ranger207 4y ago
The Omega alternate firmware does have RPN https://getomega.dev/ https://getomega.dev/

projektfu 4y ago

I had the privilege of buying two expensive calculators. First, a TI-85 (1993) and then a new math teacher hired was more familiar with the HP-48G (1995) and had us get one. While fun to use to goof off in class, I felt they were like learning to use a slide rule: obsolete before you bought them. Did the small screen and the over-precise numeric answers give us a better idea of what we were doing than pencil and graph paper? Did it make any students appreciate math subjects more? Having built an RPN evaluator at summer camp, I appreciated that my friends were learning it, too, on the HP-48. In college, I literally never used it. A simple scientific calculator was almost always more useful.

petee 4y ago
I'd argue that a sliderule is at least something you can manipulate with your hands and immediately see the output relationship. Tangent, I use a tape measure at work and you can fold it back on itself to make a basic slide rule for quick addition and subtraction without bothering with fractions :)

modeless 4y ago

It is a shame that calculators are stuck in the past for silly regulatory reasons, but there is a silver lining. These relics are excellent machines for learning low level programming without the complexity of modern hardware. You can write C code with essentially no operating system underneath you, read the keyboard I/O registers directly, flip pixels on the screen by writing to the framebuffer pointer, write your own interrupt handlers, etc. There are no other widely available computers this simple anymore, and because of their ubiquity there is still an active hobbyist community making new software. If I was going to make a course on programming I would get every student a calculator and have them write some C on it.

TimTheTinker 4y ago
> there is a silver lining. These relics are excellent machines for learning low level programming without the complexity of modern hardware. My thought exactly. Give kids a calculator app for their phone, and I'm positive far fewer would end up writing code for it - and fewer would end up as developers. There's something so cool about writing a little game and showing it to your friends when you're in 9th grade. "Dude, you programmed a game on your calculator?! You're a genius" is so fun to hear at 14 years old.
- zerocrates 4y ago
  Do you have any knowledge whether there's still much of this going on? I remember futzing around with TI Basic and downloading/sharing more complex games from others... but we didn't have smartphones then. I just wonder to what extent students still care about that stuff today. I suppose there's still some appeal from the "look like you're doing work" factor if nothing else.
  - morninglight 4y ago
    The Raspberry Pi Pico has opened the door to young experimenters thanks to the MMBasic programming language from Geoff Graham. There are several excellent videos that explain the setup and operation. The Pico is actually available for $4. The software and manual (PDF) are free to download. It is super easy to get started - 5 minutes and you're writing software that can solve problems and control I/O. PicoMite: Running BASIC on a Raspberry Pi Pico https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxmjy1nz6MM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cxmjy1nz6MM PicoMiteVGA Raspberry Pi Pico Running BASIC on VGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIK1ujslHHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIK1ujslHHI ....

twobitshifter 4y ago

Mine was a hand me down from my older sister. Our public school did have some TI-82s that they lent out for classes, but that wasn’t always the case and the cost of a calculator was certainly a burden on some families.

gamerDude 4y ago

Most of the schools I work with now have their students use Desmos, a free online graphing calculator. So thankfully, we've been moving away from TI.

sascha_sl 4y ago

In some states of Germany they also lobbied for advanced high school courses to require a Voyage 200 (after you already shelled out for a TI-84+). This thing was pricy and the school ended up having a few units to lend out because not everyone could afford them.

int_19h 4y ago

There's one thing that calculators can do that powerful modern gadgets cannot: run on AAA batteries. It doesn't even have to be something as old as TI-83, too. For example, Casio Prizm FX-50 has a color screen, and can be mounted over USB as a storage device. And in terms of hardware power, it's fast enough to run a NES emulator: https://github.com/tswilliamson/nesizm https://github.com/tswilliamson/nesizm. (For the curious, here's a dev wiki for this platform: https://prizm.cemetech.net/index.php/Prizm_Programming_Portal https://prizm.cemetech.net/index.php/Prizm_Programming_Porta...)

Zardoz84 4y ago

Meanwhile, on Spain we can use any cheap Casio calculator (really any calculator).

Aissen 4y ago
Even without regulation, there's another aspect to know of: how to use the features of your calculators. If your teacher doesn't know the model, you'll be left learning both new class concepts, and new calculator features on your own. It's entirely doable (I always had my casio graph calculator manual with me through the end of high school), but needs more effort.
pjmlp 4y ago
Casio rules also on the other side of the Iberian penisula.