4 ms·

It’s good thing we moved from these old urban walkable designs to a car centric lifestyle, which the vast majority of Americans enjoy. The tradeoff of owning a

by kory 4y ago

It’s good thing we moved from these old urban walkable designs to a car centric lifestyle, which the vast majority of Americans enjoy. The tradeoff of owning a single family home with a good plot of land is well worth the loss in walkability. This isn’t sarcasm. Edit: I understand HN really doesn’t like pro car and pro sprawl viewpoints, but downvotes don’t feel well placed.

scrollaway 4y ago
Your comment history is fascinating. You posted yourself about the ridiculous subsidies that US suburbia gets so you clearly understand that the way Americans live in the suburbs is completely out of touch with how much it really costs, and very few people if any would actually choose suburbia if they had to bear those costs. Yet here and elsewhere you also say it’s all a “good thing”, and that Americans are “choosing this”. They really aren’t. Zoning laws are preventing better alternatives from being created, and the subsidies basically force an unnatural amount of people to go that route even if they hate it. And honestly, most of y’all don’t know any better. Whenever I have Americans over visiting Brussels, it ends in “holy shit I want to move here”. Last guy I had over was from Alabama. I walked with him from one end of the city to the other in less than a couple hours, stopping everywhere interesting. His mind was blown: it’s the same distance he would have to take his car to go to the nearest pub to his house.
- kory 4y ago
  > Your comment history is fascinating. Can we refrain from the reddit-esque creepy "gotcha" of digging through post history of another user instead of addressing the argument at hand? > You posted yourself about the ridiculous subsidies that US suburbia gets so you clearly understand that the way Americans live in the suburbs is completely out of touch with how much it really costs Yep. > and very few people if any would actually choose suburbia if they had to bear those costs. I don't agree. It's arguable we do already bear much of these costs, as a lot of infrastructure is paid for through development fees (higher housing prices) or through federal & state grants (which we all pay for). I understand cities subsidize suburban areas to some extent, but that's largely from business tax that, again, we all pay for in higher prices. > Americans are “choosing this” Look at the pandemic trends, that haven't really reversed since. People left cities and suburban / rural property values shot up compared to big city real estate. > oning laws are preventing better alternatives from being created No, they're keeping nice neighborhoods nice low density neighborhoods. Like the inhabitants of those neighborhoods want them to be. > Whenever I have Americans over visiting Brussels Something tells me "Americans who want to visit Brussels" has a strong pro-density sampling bias. You're also seeing the initial reaction and not the long term reaction. > His mind was blown But would he really live there, or was he just surprised by the different infrastructure? For clarity, I live right in the middle in one of the most walkable places in the US. In the past, I’ve lived in suburban and rural areas. I understand the pro's of walkability, but I also understand suburbanites and rural folks don't want those pros because of the cons that come with them.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    > Can we refrain from No, own your opinions. You posted something where you literally had to give the disclaimer "This isn't sarcasm", because it reeked of sarcasm. I went through your post history to understand you and your point better. This isn't a fucking gotcha, it's a show of faith and compassion. > No, they're keeping nice neighborhoods nice low density neighborhoods Not just zoning laws in your suburbia, zoning laws in the city itself. And no they're not; I'm starting to get the feeling you're not arguing in good faith. > But would he really live there I'm helping him organize his move later this year. Does that answer your question?
    - kory 4y ago
      > This isn't a fucking gotcha, it's a show of faith and compassion. It certainly comes across that way, from the tone of your comments. > Not just zoning laws in your suburbia, zoning laws in the city itself. Yeah, I live in one of those single family walkable city neighborhoods. It’s a nice low density neighborhood. We don’t want it changed, but density advocates that don’t live here have “selected” us for an up-zone campaign. This isn’t a bad faith argument at all… This seems to be the serious lapse in understanding between pro density and pro single family zoning folks. I’m super glad you were able to help someone move to a walkable area as well! I’m very happy someone discovered they wanted such a lifestyle over sprawl. That said, the vast majority in NA still prefer SF zoning and sprawl. I’m not convinced that will ever change unless sprawl becomes unimaginably expensive.
      - scrollaway 4y ago
        > It certainly comes across that way, from the tone of your comments. There's no ill intent in my comments, you might be choosing to read them as hostile. I'm just giving you some perspective and examples of real life experience. Also you wanted to understand the downvotes, which is also why I chose to reply.
        kory 4y ago
        > I'm just giving you some perspective and examples of real life experience Frankly, this comes across as a little bit condescending. Another example, a phrase like this from your first response: > And honestly, most of y’all don’t know any better Who are "y'all"? Why don't we know any better? This comes across as hostile, like you're coming at this from the perspective of "I'm definitely right and this guy is full of it." I don't believe that's true, but that's how it read to me. Perhaps it's just the challenge of no discernible tone in text. > Also you wanted to understand the downvotes, which is also why I chose to reply I still don't quite understand. Downvote != agree, and my comment wasn't rude or disrespectful. It's just not the majority opinion here.
- kodah 4y ago
  Looking through your comment history, it's filled with snide remarks and nothing of any real informational value. Maybe looking through peoples comments on isolated threads doesn't do what you think it does? Unless you think snide remarks and vapid posts got you to 26k karma.
  - scrollaway 4y ago
    I have no idea what you’re on about; if you’d like to read through my other comments, maybe start with the ones in this very thread, which explain that this isn’t a gotcha?
rainsford 4y ago
Do people actually enjoy car-centric living, or are alternatives just not available or something the average American has much exposure to? If you want to live somewhere in America that's walkable/bikeable/good public transit, your choices are a lot more limited than if you're willing to live somewhere where you need to drive everywhere. And those limited choices tend to be more expensive, which I think says something about their popularity. Interestingly though, it seems like there is a trend to expand car alternative options, at least in some areas of the country. There's not much you can do about an exurban bedroom community because density is so low and nothing besides other houses is remotely within a convenient non-car distance. But in places that could be less car-centric, you're starting to see expanded public transit and bicycle infrastructure. And even in what would normally be a suburban area, I've started to see more mixed use development with higher density housing options. And of course more high-end condo type housing in large cities themselves. The fact these all tend to be relatively expensive places to rent or buy a home suggests to me that demand is fairly high, so clearly not everyone loves the car-centric choice. I also think there is a segment of Americans who love the idea of low-density, car-centric, single family development in theory, but they're running into the reality that trying to build that for everyone means that people are going to have to live increasingly far away from anywhere they want to go. Even if you don't mind driving everywhere, car-centric becomes a lot less fun when everything is a 30+ minute drive away and gas is becoming more expensive.
- kory 4y ago
  > car-centric becomes a lot less fun when everything is a 30+ minute drive away and gas is becoming more expensive. The funny thing is I live in a city, in transit-oriented, mid density, walkable area, and it takes 30 mins for me to get anywhere interesting outside of my neighborhood. My friends in the 'burbs can hop over to similar amenities in half the time I can.
matchbok 4y ago
Certainly many people enjoy that type of life. The frustrating part is the one-size-fits-all zoning that has made it difficult to build anything but that type of community. It's illegal to build car-free apartments in many places because car owners think they should be able to drive and park everywhere.
- kory 4y ago
  Existing residents don't want apartments because they block sunlight, they cause overcrowding, they don't fit with the neighborhood's style. Frankly, as well, renters & especially landlords don't tend to take care of property or invest in the community as much as owner occupiers do, because the incentives aren't there for either of them to do so. It's not the renter's property and they can be kicked / priced out of the neighborhood at any time, so why bother to invest in it? Any investment in making your space nice means the landlord can hike your rent. On the landlord side, they know they're going to find another tenant as long as the unit is habitable enough, so in comes the "landlord special". I know this isn't universally true by any means, but the incentive structure is there. In apartment buildings that are "transit-enabled", every apartment usually has 1 car, maybe 2, and those cars flood the local street, making quality of life worse for all existing residents. Those apartments are more likely to own cars as we look at places that are more car-centric. In suburbia, an apartment building usually comes with a huge parking lot for all the cars, which isn't great, but it's a little more palpable for people living in the area already.
dncornholio 4y ago
Imagine the amount of free time you gain when each kid can go to practice, school, friends, etc, all by themself by either walking or biking. Safety is also no issue because so many other people are walking or cycling. I could not imagine my childhood when I had to ask my parents to go anywhere. The price you pay is bigger than you think.
iso1631 4y ago
I live in a single family house in the UK with a decent plot of land, the roads are quiet enough (even in the busy few days around harvest) to not worry about traffic at all when walking or riding a bike.

by kory 4y ago

scrollaway 4y ago

Your comment history is fascinating. You posted yourself about the ridiculous subsidies that US suburbia gets so you clearly understand that the way Americans live in the suburbs is completely out of touch with how much it really costs, and very few people if any would actually choose suburbia if they had to bear those costs. Yet here and elsewhere you also say it’s all a “good thing”, and that Americans are “choosing this”. They really aren’t. Zoning laws are preventing better alternatives from being created, and the subsidies basically force an unnatural amount of people to go that route even if they hate it. And honestly, most of y’all don’t know any better. Whenever I have Americans over visiting Brussels, it ends in “holy shit I want to move here”. Last guy I had over was from Alabama. I walked with him from one end of the city to the other in less than a couple hours, stopping everywhere interesting. His mind was blown: it’s the same distance he would have to take his car to go to the nearest pub to his house.

kory 4y ago
> Your comment history is fascinating. Can we refrain from the reddit-esque creepy "gotcha" of digging through post history of another user instead of addressing the argument at hand? > You posted yourself about the ridiculous subsidies that US suburbia gets so you clearly understand that the way Americans live in the suburbs is completely out of touch with how much it really costs Yep. > and very few people if any would actually choose suburbia if they had to bear those costs. I don't agree. It's arguable we do already bear much of these costs, as a lot of infrastructure is paid for through development fees (higher housing prices) or through federal & state grants (which we all pay for). I understand cities subsidize suburban areas to some extent, but that's largely from business tax that, again, we all pay for in higher prices. > Americans are “choosing this” Look at the pandemic trends, that haven't really reversed since. People left cities and suburban / rural property values shot up compared to big city real estate. > oning laws are preventing better alternatives from being created No, they're keeping nice neighborhoods nice low density neighborhoods. Like the inhabitants of those neighborhoods want them to be. > Whenever I have Americans over visiting Brussels Something tells me "Americans who want to visit Brussels" has a strong pro-density sampling bias. You're also seeing the initial reaction and not the long term reaction. > His mind was blown But would he really live there, or was he just surprised by the different infrastructure? For clarity, I live right in the middle in one of the most walkable places in the US. In the past, I’ve lived in suburban and rural areas. I understand the pro's of walkability, but I also understand suburbanites and rural folks don't want those pros because of the cons that come with them.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  > Can we refrain from No, own your opinions. You posted something where you literally had to give the disclaimer "This isn't sarcasm", because it reeked of sarcasm. I went through your post history to understand you and your point better. This isn't a fucking gotcha, it's a show of faith and compassion. > No, they're keeping nice neighborhoods nice low density neighborhoods Not just zoning laws in your suburbia, zoning laws in the city itself. And no they're not; I'm starting to get the feeling you're not arguing in good faith. > But would he really live there I'm helping him organize his move later this year. Does that answer your question?
  - kory 4y ago
    > This isn't a fucking gotcha, it's a show of faith and compassion. It certainly comes across that way, from the tone of your comments. > Not just zoning laws in your suburbia, zoning laws in the city itself. Yeah, I live in one of those single family walkable city neighborhoods. It’s a nice low density neighborhood. We don’t want it changed, but density advocates that don’t live here have “selected” us for an up-zone campaign. This isn’t a bad faith argument at all… This seems to be the serious lapse in understanding between pro density and pro single family zoning folks. I’m super glad you were able to help someone move to a walkable area as well! I’m very happy someone discovered they wanted such a lifestyle over sprawl. That said, the vast majority in NA still prefer SF zoning and sprawl. I’m not convinced that will ever change unless sprawl becomes unimaginably expensive.
    - scrollaway 4y ago
      > It certainly comes across that way, from the tone of your comments. There's no ill intent in my comments, you might be choosing to read them as hostile. I'm just giving you some perspective and examples of real life experience. Also you wanted to understand the downvotes, which is also why I chose to reply.
      - kory 4y ago
        > I'm just giving you some perspective and examples of real life experience Frankly, this comes across as a little bit condescending. Another example, a phrase like this from your first response: > And honestly, most of y’all don’t know any better Who are "y'all"? Why don't we know any better? This comes across as hostile, like you're coming at this from the perspective of "I'm definitely right and this guy is full of it." I don't believe that's true, but that's how it read to me. Perhaps it's just the challenge of no discernible tone in text. > Also you wanted to understand the downvotes, which is also why I chose to reply I still don't quite understand. Downvote != agree, and my comment wasn't rude or disrespectful. It's just not the majority opinion here.
kodah 4y ago
Looking through your comment history, it's filled with snide remarks and nothing of any real informational value. Maybe looking through peoples comments on isolated threads doesn't do what you think it does? Unless you think snide remarks and vapid posts got you to 26k karma.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  I have no idea what you’re on about; if you’d like to read through my other comments, maybe start with the ones in this very thread, which explain that this isn’t a gotcha?

rainsford 4y ago

Do people actually enjoy car-centric living, or are alternatives just not available or something the average American has much exposure to? If you want to live somewhere in America that's walkable/bikeable/good public transit, your choices are a lot more limited than if you're willing to live somewhere where you need to drive everywhere. And those limited choices tend to be more expensive, which I think says something about their popularity. Interestingly though, it seems like there is a trend to expand car alternative options, at least in some areas of the country. There's not much you can do about an exurban bedroom community because density is so low and nothing besides other houses is remotely within a convenient non-car distance. But in places that could be less car-centric, you're starting to see expanded public transit and bicycle infrastructure. And even in what would normally be a suburban area, I've started to see more mixed use development with higher density housing options. And of course more high-end condo type housing in large cities themselves. The fact these all tend to be relatively expensive places to rent or buy a home suggests to me that demand is fairly high, so clearly not everyone loves the car-centric choice. I also think there is a segment of Americans who love the idea of low-density, car-centric, single family development in theory, but they're running into the reality that trying to build that for everyone means that people are going to have to live increasingly far away from anywhere they want to go. Even if you don't mind driving everywhere, car-centric becomes a lot less fun when everything is a 30+ minute drive away and gas is becoming more expensive.

kory 4y ago
> car-centric becomes a lot less fun when everything is a 30+ minute drive away and gas is becoming more expensive. The funny thing is I live in a city, in transit-oriented, mid density, walkable area, and it takes 30 mins for me to get anywhere interesting outside of my neighborhood. My friends in the 'burbs can hop over to similar amenities in half the time I can.

matchbok 4y ago

Certainly many people enjoy that type of life. The frustrating part is the one-size-fits-all zoning that has made it difficult to build anything but that type of community. It's illegal to build car-free apartments in many places because car owners think they should be able to drive and park everywhere.

kory 4y ago
Existing residents don't want apartments because they block sunlight, they cause overcrowding, they don't fit with the neighborhood's style. Frankly, as well, renters & especially landlords don't tend to take care of property or invest in the community as much as owner occupiers do, because the incentives aren't there for either of them to do so. It's not the renter's property and they can be kicked / priced out of the neighborhood at any time, so why bother to invest in it? Any investment in making your space nice means the landlord can hike your rent. On the landlord side, they know they're going to find another tenant as long as the unit is habitable enough, so in comes the "landlord special". I know this isn't universally true by any means, but the incentive structure is there. In apartment buildings that are "transit-enabled", every apartment usually has 1 car, maybe 2, and those cars flood the local street, making quality of life worse for all existing residents. Those apartments are more likely to own cars as we look at places that are more car-centric. In suburbia, an apartment building usually comes with a huge parking lot for all the cars, which isn't great, but it's a little more palpable for people living in the area already.

dncornholio 4y ago

Imagine the amount of free time you gain when each kid can go to practice, school, friends, etc, all by themself by either walking or biking. Safety is also no issue because so many other people are walking or cycling. I could not imagine my childhood when I had to ask my parents to go anywhere. The price you pay is bigger than you think.

iso1631 4y ago

I live in a single family house in the UK with a decent plot of land, the roads are quiet enough (even in the busy few days around harvest) to not worry about traffic at all when walking or riding a bike.