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Valid perspective for some developers, yet thousands of software engineers enjoy creative, satisfying careers building projects without concerns for the inner w

by jb1991 4y ago

Valid perspective for some developers, yet thousands of software engineers enjoy creative, satisfying careers building projects without concerns for the inner workings of a web library or the extra effort to engineer the stack directly. They just want to build the product using an established framework.

blain_the_train 4y ago
and clojure has several such frameworks.
- jb1991 4y ago
  ... but nothing like rails, hence this article and discussion
didibus 4y ago
I totally respect that, and Clojure could invest more in offering frameworks or even no-code platforms or such features, but the truth is it doesn't. The language very much targets the people who are interested in not just the functional requirements, but also the non-functional requirements of performance, scale, architectural runway, future extensibility, operations, maintainability, correctness, re-usability, etc. Especially, Clojure targets those who believe a balance between all these and functional requirements is the holy grail. That's why it won't be the most correct, the most performant, the most productive, but a pragmatic balance of all these in almost equal parts. Maybe it should also embrace the people looking to get a product out by simply using a framework, and I'd say there's more of that in Clojure today than ever before, but the community I think is more composed of the former people that I describe, which is why you don't see any attempted framework take hold in the community, because most current members are not in the group that "just want to build the product using an established framework". I think the community has settled, ounce again, on a bit of a balanced approach, Kit (https://github.com/kit-clj/kit https://github.com/kit-clj/kit) and Edge (https://github.com/juxt/edge https://github.com/juxt/edge) are such hybrids. And some more direct viable frameworks have come along like Biff (https://biffweb.com/ https://biffweb.com/) and Fulcro (https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/ https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/). That said, since the community is more composed of people like me, you don't see a mass move of every Clojurian switching to one of those. So it creates some questions? 1. Is it a problem that the language targets engineers more interested in a balance between non-functional and functional? 2. Should it be mutually exclusive, or can Clojure equally serve both niche? And if so, should it, why? 3. Is the claim that you can be as productive and it is just as easy to build a product without using a framework in Clojure true? Does this apply to everyone, or only certain personalities or people with certain amount of lower level knowledge? 4. Is Clojure's marketing misleading? Are people looking to just "build the product using an established framework" mislead in thinking Clojure will offer them salvation? 5. Where do most developer fall in, if they don't fall in the category Clojure currently targets, then does that mean Clojure cannot become mainstream? To go mainstream does it mean you have to target frameworks because there are more developers looking to just make a product using a framework? I don't have answers to these, I'm just trying to define the current state and what the problem with it might be, or if it even is a problem.

by jb1991 4y ago

blain_the_train 4y ago

and clojure has several such frameworks.

jb1991 4y ago
... but nothing like rails, hence this article and discussion

didibus 4y ago

I totally respect that, and Clojure could invest more in offering frameworks or even no-code platforms or such features, but the truth is it doesn't. The language very much targets the people who are interested in not just the functional requirements, but also the non-functional requirements of performance, scale, architectural runway, future extensibility, operations, maintainability, correctness, re-usability, etc. Especially, Clojure targets those who believe a balance between all these and functional requirements is the holy grail. That's why it won't be the most correct, the most performant, the most productive, but a pragmatic balance of all these in almost equal parts. Maybe it should also embrace the people looking to get a product out by simply using a framework, and I'd say there's more of that in Clojure today than ever before, but the community I think is more composed of the former people that I describe, which is why you don't see any attempted framework take hold in the community, because most current members are not in the group that "just want to build the product using an established framework". I think the community has settled, ounce again, on a bit of a balanced approach, Kit (https://github.com/kit-clj/kit https://github.com/kit-clj/kit) and Edge (https://github.com/juxt/edge https://github.com/juxt/edge) are such hybrids. And some more direct viable frameworks have come along like Biff (https://biffweb.com/ https://biffweb.com/) and Fulcro (https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/ https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/). That said, since the community is more composed of people like me, you don't see a mass move of every Clojurian switching to one of those. So it creates some questions? 1. Is it a problem that the language targets engineers more interested in a balance between non-functional and functional? 2. Should it be mutually exclusive, or can Clojure equally serve both niche? And if so, should it, why? 3. Is the claim that you can be as productive and it is just as easy to build a product without using a framework in Clojure true? Does this apply to everyone, or only certain personalities or people with certain amount of lower level knowledge? 4. Is Clojure's marketing misleading? Are people looking to just "build the product using an established framework" mislead in thinking Clojure will offer them salvation? 5. Where do most developer fall in, if they don't fall in the category Clojure currently targets, then does that mean Clojure cannot become mainstream? To go mainstream does it mean you have to target frameworks because there are more developers looking to just make a product using a framework? I don't have answers to these, I'm just trying to define the current state and what the problem with it might be, or if it even is a problem.