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You can have principled and ethical standards for judging historical events and characters without regressing to the juvenile act of moralizing. Western establ

You can have principled and ethical standards for judging historical events and characters without regressing to the juvenile act of moralizing. Western establishment media constantly moralizes the Ukraine conflict because the reality is much more nuanced and not aligned with Washington's foreign policy goals in the region. It's much easier to say "Putin bad" than deal with the decades of ugliness involving the Budapest Memorandum, Orange Revolution, Pinchuk's YES campaign, Kolomoyskyi's propaganda drive, Maidan coup, Sevestapol, etc. and Washington's often direct involvement in all of the above.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> It's much easier to say "Putin bad" than deal with the decades of ugliness involving the Budapest Memorandum, Orange Revolution, Pinchuk's YES campaign, Kolomoyskyi's propaganda drive, Maidan coup, Sevestapol, etc. and Washington's often direct involvement in all of the above. I dunno it’s kinda easy to say that the guy commanding his army to exterminate an entire country is “bad”. This is less moralising and more that the world has decided maybe Russia shouldn’t be raping Ukrainians?, executing citizens?, committing genocide?. There’s no amount of meddling that should make the above justifiable. This is evidenced by Russia constantly changing their reasons for invading, they know there’s no valid reason.
- pphysch 4y ago
  > the guy commanding his army to exterminate an entire country is “bad” If this were true, why did Moscow not simply cull the entire population of Kiev with a thermobaric carpet bombing on day 1? Why have civilian deaths so obviously been minimized? When you start from this outrageously false premise, despite an abundance of evidence suggesting other motives, you concede any chance of accurately diagnosing this conflict. https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > If this were true, why did Moscow not simply cull the entire population of Kiev with a thermobaric carpet bombing on day 1? Because they want to capture the people too. > Why have civilian deaths so obviously been minimized I didn’t knowing that lunching anti aircraft carrier weapons at shopping malls was considered “minimising civilian deaths”. Russia uses civilian deaths as a weapon of war. They also use forced deportation and filtration camps (which are used to torture and kill civilians) as a weapon of war. Russia in way minimises civilian deaths in fact they try and maximise them. > When you start from this outrageously false premise, despite an abundance of evidence suggesting other motives, you concede any chance of accurately diagnosing this conflict. https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM No one forced Russia to invade, no one forced Russia to rape, no one forced Russia to commit genocide. The decision to do and support these actions lies solely with Russia itself I’m kinda interested how you explain away the Russian embassy saying that legitimate Ukrainian POW’s should be executed?, war crime, but then again Russia seems to be trying to tick off every war crime it can.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - pphysch 4y ago
      Frankly, it's not even worth replying to this disingenuous goalpost-moving and "firehose of falsehoods" tactic. I've linked an informative resource above for anyone interested in factual debate on this topic.
      - _kbh_ 4y ago
        > Frankly, it's not even worth replying to this disingenuous goalpost-moving and "firehose of falsehoods" tactic. I've linked an informative resource above for anyone interested in factual debate on this topic. You're not responding because there's no response. The Russians are killing, raping civilians and committing genocide in Ukraine. There is no reason for Russias war of aggression other then because they want to capture a country that they claim doesn't even exist. There's insurmountable evidence that the Russians aren't avoiding civilian casualties and that they are using them to inflict a terror campaign on Ukraine as a whole. There is no goalpost moving, there is only the truth. I will admit I haven't seen Russia's supporters accuse other people of using the "Firehose of Falsehood" before, but then again it was only a matter of time really as Russia and its supporters accuse others of doing what they/it does.
        vogre 4y ago
        >committing genocide in Ukraine. False. The current actions are not genocide by any means. Even raping of civilians is unproved. Ukraine even fired their human rights chief because of lie spreading https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680 https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissio... >There is no reason for Russias war of aggression other then because they want to capture a country that they claim doesn't even exist. False. The expansion of NATO to the east, 2014 anti-russian coup in Ukraine, the refusal to follow to Minsk agreements(guaranteed by western leaders, who failed them too) and militarization of Ukraine were the major reasons of the events. Another false: Putin never claimed Ukraine doesn't exist.
  - wiseowise 4y ago
    > Why have civilian deaths so obviously been minimized? Were they?
    - pphysch 4y ago
      There are literally beach parties in Mariupol and concerts in Kiev right now. Come on.
      - wiseowise 4y ago
        No beach parties in Bucha and Mariupol.
        vogre 4y ago
        wiseowise 4y ago
        pphysch 4y ago
        That's just wrong. Mariupol and many other places are peaceful after being liberated from Azov neo-Nazis.
        _kbh_ 4y ago
        The people of Mariupol are being disappeared by the Russians and don’t have any food or water. Mariupol was peaceful before the Russians Nazis invaded. You can try and shout about Azov all you want but it might be better to do that in a war where the Russian Nazi PMC (Wagner) isn’t committing war crimes left right and centre.
        wiseowise 4y ago
        I think it was sarcasm.
jollybean 4y ago
"without regressing to the juvenile act of moralizing." ? It's not 'juvenile' to call a murderer, a murderer. It's juvenile to contemplate otherwise with whataboutery. Putin is a mass killer, absolutely, within the historical realities of "Budapest, Maidan, Orange Revolution, Donbass - and even 'Washington's Involvement'" It's juvenile (or maybe 'in bad faith', or 'dumb', or 'evil')to hide under their propaganda and hold it at face value. Putin has been interfering in Ukraine since it gained independence, he poisoned Yuschenko (and of course poisoned and killed so many of his other opponents), he has his GRU thugs all over Ukraine corrupting, bribing etc. trying to gain control, trying to turn Ukraine into a vassal, exactly along the lines of Belarus, where has that living fart Lukashenko do whatever he wants. He bribed and played 'both sides' of the 2014 Donbas conflict and lies blatantly all the time about supposed NATO concerns etc.. Putin is a Russian Imperialist Fascist who is 100% responsible for the war, mass murder, suppression within his domain (Russia, Belarus etc.) in the same vein as innumerable leaders before him. That's 'immoral'.
wiseowise 4y ago
> It's much easier to say "Putin bad" than deal with the decades of ugliness involving the Budapest Memorandum, Orange Revolution, Pinchuk's YES campaign, Kolomoyskyi's propaganda drive, Maidan coup, Sevestapol, etc. and Washington's often direct involvement in all of the above. Should’ve started with that, Ivan. Nothing, short of literal genocide, justifies war against other country.
- pphysch 4y ago
  Explaining is not justifying.

_kbh_ 4y ago

> It's much easier to say "Putin bad" than deal with the decades of ugliness involving the Budapest Memorandum, Orange Revolution, Pinchuk's YES campaign, Kolomoyskyi's propaganda drive, Maidan coup, Sevestapol, etc. and Washington's often direct involvement in all of the above. I dunno it’s kinda easy to say that the guy commanding his army to exterminate an entire country is “bad”. This is less moralising and more that the world has decided maybe Russia shouldn’t be raping Ukrainians?, executing citizens?, committing genocide?. There’s no amount of meddling that should make the above justifiable. This is evidenced by Russia constantly changing their reasons for invading, they know there’s no valid reason.

pphysch 4y ago
> the guy commanding his army to exterminate an entire country is “bad” If this were true, why did Moscow not simply cull the entire population of Kiev with a thermobaric carpet bombing on day 1? Why have civilian deaths so obviously been minimized? When you start from this outrageously false premise, despite an abundance of evidence suggesting other motives, you concede any chance of accurately diagnosing this conflict. https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > If this were true, why did Moscow not simply cull the entire population of Kiev with a thermobaric carpet bombing on day 1? Because they want to capture the people too. > Why have civilian deaths so obviously been minimized I didn’t knowing that lunching anti aircraft carrier weapons at shopping malls was considered “minimising civilian deaths”. Russia uses civilian deaths as a weapon of war. They also use forced deportation and filtration camps (which are used to torture and kill civilians) as a weapon of war. Russia in way minimises civilian deaths in fact they try and maximise them. > When you start from this outrageously false premise, despite an abundance of evidence suggesting other motives, you concede any chance of accurately diagnosing this conflict. https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM https://youtu.be/qciVozNtCDM No one forced Russia to invade, no one forced Russia to rape, no one forced Russia to commit genocide. The decision to do and support these actions lies solely with Russia itself I’m kinda interested how you explain away the Russian embassy saying that legitimate Ukrainian POW’s should be executed?, war crime, but then again Russia seems to be trying to tick off every war crime it can.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - pphysch 4y ago
    Frankly, it's not even worth replying to this disingenuous goalpost-moving and "firehose of falsehoods" tactic. I've linked an informative resource above for anyone interested in factual debate on this topic.
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      > Frankly, it's not even worth replying to this disingenuous goalpost-moving and "firehose of falsehoods" tactic. I've linked an informative resource above for anyone interested in factual debate on this topic. You're not responding because there's no response. The Russians are killing, raping civilians and committing genocide in Ukraine. There is no reason for Russias war of aggression other then because they want to capture a country that they claim doesn't even exist. There's insurmountable evidence that the Russians aren't avoiding civilian casualties and that they are using them to inflict a terror campaign on Ukraine as a whole. There is no goalpost moving, there is only the truth. I will admit I haven't seen Russia's supporters accuse other people of using the "Firehose of Falsehood" before, but then again it was only a matter of time really as Russia and its supporters accuse others of doing what they/it does.
      - vogre 4y ago
        >committing genocide in Ukraine. False. The current actions are not genocide by any means. Even raping of civilians is unproved. Ukraine even fired their human rights chief because of lie spreading https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissioner-human-rights-removed-russian-sexual-assault-claims-1711680 https://www.newsweek.com/lyudmila-denisova-ukraine-commissio... >There is no reason for Russias war of aggression other then because they want to capture a country that they claim doesn't even exist. False. The expansion of NATO to the east, 2014 anti-russian coup in Ukraine, the refusal to follow to Minsk agreements(guaranteed by western leaders, who failed them too) and militarization of Ukraine were the major reasons of the events. Another false: Putin never claimed Ukraine doesn't exist.
- wiseowise 4y ago
  > Why have civilian deaths so obviously been minimized? Were they?
  - pphysch 4y ago
    There are literally beach parties in Mariupol and concerts in Kiev right now. Come on.
    - wiseowise 4y ago
      No beach parties in Bucha and Mariupol.
      - vogre 4y ago
        wiseowise 4y ago
      - pphysch 4y ago
        That's just wrong. Mariupol and many other places are peaceful after being liberated from Azov neo-Nazis.
        _kbh_ 4y ago
        The people of Mariupol are being disappeared by the Russians and don’t have any food or water. Mariupol was peaceful before the Russians Nazis invaded. You can try and shout about Azov all you want but it might be better to do that in a war where the Russian Nazi PMC (Wagner) isn’t committing war crimes left right and centre.
        wiseowise 4y ago
        I think it was sarcasm.

jollybean 4y ago

"without regressing to the juvenile act of moralizing." ? It's not 'juvenile' to call a murderer, a murderer. It's juvenile to contemplate otherwise with whataboutery. Putin is a mass killer, absolutely, within the historical realities of "Budapest, Maidan, Orange Revolution, Donbass - and even 'Washington's Involvement'" It's juvenile (or maybe 'in bad faith', or 'dumb', or 'evil')to hide under their propaganda and hold it at face value. Putin has been interfering in Ukraine since it gained independence, he poisoned Yuschenko (and of course poisoned and killed so many of his other opponents), he has his GRU thugs all over Ukraine corrupting, bribing etc. trying to gain control, trying to turn Ukraine into a vassal, exactly along the lines of Belarus, where has that living fart Lukashenko do whatever he wants. He bribed and played 'both sides' of the 2014 Donbas conflict and lies blatantly all the time about supposed NATO concerns etc.. Putin is a Russian Imperialist Fascist who is 100% responsible for the war, mass murder, suppression within his domain (Russia, Belarus etc.) in the same vein as innumerable leaders before him. That's 'immoral'.

wiseowise 4y ago

pphysch 4y ago
Explaining is not justifying.