> It's awesome, but can we please just get together at the next Conj conference decide what our "Rails" is going to be? That way we can get down to business I

> It's awesome, but can we please just get together at the next Conj conference decide what our "Rails" is going to be? That way we can get down to business I like the rallying call here. I do think it be nice for the community to do whatever to help Clojure's viability and popularity. That said, my issue is that I disagree with the approach. I've already moved on to business and I use Clojure. I think this is the clash the community faces. On one side you've got the people who seem discontent with the libraries approach, and refuse to embrace the hosted nature, they want a native Clojure, no reliance on interop. They might not know Java or JavaScript and might be unfamiliar with their runtimes, or simply discontent with them and don't want to touch them ever. Then you've got the other side of the community, I think where I fall in, I want to do things my way, don't want to learn any framework, instead I'll just do it like I feel and it'll work better for me, as I'll know it ins/out. I dislike framework, I'd rather just straight up use things directly, I want as little indirection, and I have no issue using interop and having a few wrapper shims when needed. That side of the community is just delivering business as usual with what's already there, and it doesn't seem much more is needed. Unfortunately, I also think there's another dimension between this dichotomy, the latter group, where I fall for example, I think is leaning more experienced, senior, team lead, Clojure is their third to fourth professional language, they've settled in it. The Stackoverflow survey did show Clojure had the most senior leaning user base, and probably because of that is also highest paid. I think this is an issue, because take me, in Java, C# or some other language I've worked in professionally, I'm all up on advocating for use of the frameworks, the DI, the design patterns, and I'll contribute. These languages are too heavy, you can never get anything done quickly or without the man-power, and you don't want too, it's not fun. So you need to rally yourself behind one thing, even if it's not perfect, there's no room for experiments. The reason I'm using Clojure is to get away from that though, it's for the freedom to experiment, the ability to within the business budget, be able to deliver the same amount yet custom built half of it exactly as I want. I couldn't get away with that in Java, I'd miss deadlines. So if I assume half the community is like me, I think that's a lot of people who don't want to focus on one framework, or one way to do things.