4 ms·

Outside of very few, select circumstances, violence isn't the answer inside of a household. The exceptions are rape/sexual violence and self defense, and other

Outside of very few, select circumstances, violence isn't the answer inside of a household. The exceptions are rape/sexual violence and self defense, and other crimes of that magnitude. Even if two boys are fighting it out, I'm not sure if the right answer is to kick their ass and spank them / humiliate them over it. People used to beat their kids up over bad grades or missing homework assignments. That's too much violence for sure.

lelanthran 4y ago
> Outside of very few, select circumstances, violence isn't the answer inside of a household. Sure, but we're teaching kids lessons for when they're adults, right? Is it really a good idea to raise a generation who will not act out of self-defense? > Even if two boys are fighting it out, I'm not sure if the right answer is to kick their ass and spank them / humiliate them over it. I don't think violence is an answer for that. > People used to beat their kids up over bad grades or missing homework assignments. That's too much violence for sure. That's way overboard, and not what I had in mind. Rewards and punishments with kids is complex, and I don't want to come off like I am trivialising it all. Humans (and chimps, and dogs) have all been studied in-depth, and at this point we know for certain that the idea of fairness is not a uniquely human one. Take for example this very common scenario: an older/stronger child slapping a younger/weaker sibling. The victim in this case is likely not going to believe that any non-physical punishment is fair(In fact, it isn't fair), and all it would do is breed some resentment. If it happens just once or twice, sure, the victim can move on. If it happens all the time and the only result is that the parents take away TV for the aggressor for a few days, then that's going to result in plenty of long-term resentment. Even worse, sometimes if the victim responds, they're going to get punished as well because some parents don't usually care to adjudicate. Schools are even worse - the victim is more of a legal liability to the school than the aggressor, hence schools are more likely to pretend it never happened, or to punish both parties equally. Taking all this into account, I tell my boys that they should never hit first, and that if anyone ever hits them the only appropriate response to to hit back. They've[1] never hit anyone thus far, but they are also not afraid to hit anyone who hits them, because that's only fair. [1] The younger one is only 3, so not yet a proper data point.
- dragontamer 4y ago
  > Sure, but we're teaching kids lessons for when they're adults, right? Is it really a good idea to raise a generation who will not act out of self-defense? Perhaps this is my response to office gossip. But I'm talking about my coworker who regularly brags about corporal punishment and how he's a good father for hitting his kid on the regular. There's a lot of people out there. I don't think you and I are in much disagreement, although perhaps I didn't write my words in a way that suited your perspective. There's still a generation of parents who think that hitting their kids is the right response, be it from occasional spanking, or even wholesale beating them up to teach them a lesson. Beating up kids / corporal punishment isn't about "self defense", but instead about "learned helplessness". Its a different strategy to parenting, and some people still believe in it.
  - karencarits 4y ago
    > Perhaps this is my response to office gossip. But I'm talking about my coworker who regularly brags about corporal punishment and how he's a good father for hitting his kid on the regular. Depending on country and legislation, you may want to report this. In some places you may even be legally obligated to report child abuse, which this sounds like. It is not your (or mine) place to judge whether your coworker actually abuses his children (or if it is "just" talk, for example), only to report to the relevant authority so that they can investigate. Please, if you are worried for them, act
    - californical 4y ago
      This is a scary proposition though, at least in the US, because you cannot always trust good judgement from the investigators. The answer seems to be either: “there is no problem” or “you lose your kids entirely”. The likelihood of an investigator taking a nuanced response doesn’t seem very good. And the options of foster care in the US are not great, and there are child-abusers within that system too. People have gotten their kids taken away for silly things. It’s a very real fear, even for genuinely good people. Unless it’s truly horrible abuse, I’d postulate that it’s better for a kid to stay with their parents. If you call Child Services on that parent, there is a real chance that you make the kids life significantly worse than the abuse they’re receiving at home.

lelanthran 4y ago

> Outside of very few, select circumstances, violence isn't the answer inside of a household. Sure, but we're teaching kids lessons for when they're adults, right? Is it really a good idea to raise a generation who will not act out of self-defense? > Even if two boys are fighting it out, I'm not sure if the right answer is to kick their ass and spank them / humiliate them over it. I don't think violence is an answer for that. > People used to beat their kids up over bad grades or missing homework assignments. That's too much violence for sure. That's way overboard, and not what I had in mind. Rewards and punishments with kids is complex, and I don't want to come off like I am trivialising it all. Humans (and chimps, and dogs) have all been studied in-depth, and at this point we know for certain that the idea of fairness is not a uniquely human one. Take for example this very common scenario: an older/stronger child slapping a younger/weaker sibling. The victim in this case is likely not going to believe that any non-physical punishment is fair(In fact, it isn't fair), and all it would do is breed some resentment. If it happens just once or twice, sure, the victim can move on. If it happens all the time and the only result is that the parents take away TV for the aggressor for a few days, then that's going to result in plenty of long-term resentment. Even worse, sometimes if the victim responds, they're going to get punished as well because some parents don't usually care to adjudicate. Schools are even worse - the victim is more of a legal liability to the school than the aggressor, hence schools are more likely to pretend it never happened, or to punish both parties equally. Taking all this into account, I tell my boys that they should never hit first, and that if anyone ever hits them the only appropriate response to to hit back. They've[1] never hit anyone thus far, but they are also not afraid to hit anyone who hits them, because that's only fair. [1] The younger one is only 3, so not yet a proper data point.

dragontamer 4y ago
> Sure, but we're teaching kids lessons for when they're adults, right? Is it really a good idea to raise a generation who will not act out of self-defense? Perhaps this is my response to office gossip. But I'm talking about my coworker who regularly brags about corporal punishment and how he's a good father for hitting his kid on the regular. There's a lot of people out there. I don't think you and I are in much disagreement, although perhaps I didn't write my words in a way that suited your perspective. There's still a generation of parents who think that hitting their kids is the right response, be it from occasional spanking, or even wholesale beating them up to teach them a lesson. Beating up kids / corporal punishment isn't about "self defense", but instead about "learned helplessness". Its a different strategy to parenting, and some people still believe in it.
- karencarits 4y ago
  > Perhaps this is my response to office gossip. But I'm talking about my coworker who regularly brags about corporal punishment and how he's a good father for hitting his kid on the regular. Depending on country and legislation, you may want to report this. In some places you may even be legally obligated to report child abuse, which this sounds like. It is not your (or mine) place to judge whether your coworker actually abuses his children (or if it is "just" talk, for example), only to report to the relevant authority so that they can investigate. Please, if you are worried for them, act
  - californical 4y ago
    This is a scary proposition though, at least in the US, because you cannot always trust good judgement from the investigators. The answer seems to be either: “there is no problem” or “you lose your kids entirely”. The likelihood of an investigator taking a nuanced response doesn’t seem very good. And the options of foster care in the US are not great, and there are child-abusers within that system too. People have gotten their kids taken away for silly things. It’s a very real fear, even for genuinely good people. Unless it’s truly horrible abuse, I’d postulate that it’s better for a kid to stay with their parents. If you call Child Services on that parent, there is a real chance that you make the kids life significantly worse than the abuse they’re receiving at home.