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The infantilization of western society is something to be marveled at. 20 years ago if you had suggested grown adults would be seeking a “safe space” you would’

The infantilization of western society is something to be marveled at. 20 years ago if you had suggested grown adults would be seeking a “safe space” you would’ve been laughed at. This is what gives me pause about western culture prevailing. There is no such infantilization in Eastern systems of values. Victimhood is ridiculed, not promoted.

e9 4y ago
The beauty of a lot of Western societies is that you have an individual voice and you are free to be as stupid as you want. In most of the Eastern societies you don’t really have an individual voice. They have “cancel culture” embedded as a feature and not a bug. You wouldn’t dare speak against whatever norm is at the time.
- orionion 4y ago
  My first boss 45 years ago at HP (a petite Japanese lady) had a saying she learned as a child, "出る釘は打たれる" --- “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.” Needless to say many of her American workers had no conception of this cultural ideal, much to her great consternation!
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    Janteloven (Jante's law) of Denmark is rather similar. [0] Also, doesn't English have the expression "Tall poppy syndrome"? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
    - krapp 4y ago
      Yeah, the premise that the concept of societal consequences for acting out or against the status quo is so alien to Western culture that Americans literally can't comprehend it is absurd. Also see "don't stick your neck out," "the squeaky wheel gets replaced," "don't rock the boat," "speech is silver, silence is golden", "shit rolls downhill", several Biblical proverbs and some Shakespeare.
      - e9 4y ago
        It’s funny because in Canada/US the saying is: “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” I’ve never ever seen “replaced” being used instead of “grease”.
  - lazyeye 4y ago
    There was a time where there was a huge advantage to individualistic societies over collectivist. Rule-breakers built the companies, invented the technologies that super-charged their economies. Now in a modern, globalized world any new technologies are immediately imported(stolen?) and produced more cheaply and exported back undercutting/crippling the benefits that would otherwise have been had.
    - e9 4y ago
      You can only go so far as a society copying work of others. You can’t progress without innovation and if innovation is happening in other parts of the world then your are highly dependent on them. The society that produces innovation is never crippled because others are copying them.
      - lazyeye 4y ago
        Yes they are if they if the competitors are able to produce goods much more cheaply due to not having to sustain the cost of environmental/labour regulations. And for the most part, its winner takes all.
joe__f 4y ago
What's your objection to people needing spaces where they feel safe? I'm currently healing from PTSD and I can get triggered by a wide range of different situations and have flashbacks which last hours. I attend a community centre at a local mental health charity which is a space I feel safe in, and I'm not really able socialise in many other spaces at present. Am I correct in inferring from your comment that you think I would be better off in a culture where I was ridiculed for needing a space like this? Or did I misunderstand what you're saying?
- fisf 4y ago
  No. In particular, the issue is that PTSD is a (mental) illness and deserves our understanding and help. However, it is not helpful to shape all of society around this.
  - joe__f 4y ago
    What would be an example of someone who claims that they need a safe space, but does not deserve understanding and help? I'm not sure about shaping all of society, but it seems reasonable to me that there would be many other people with different circumstances to me who also need safe spaces

e9 4y ago

The beauty of a lot of Western societies is that you have an individual voice and you are free to be as stupid as you want. In most of the Eastern societies you don’t really have an individual voice. They have “cancel culture” embedded as a feature and not a bug. You wouldn’t dare speak against whatever norm is at the time.

orionion 4y ago
My first boss 45 years ago at HP (a petite Japanese lady) had a saying she learned as a child, "出る釘は打たれる" --- “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.” Needless to say many of her American workers had no conception of this cultural ideal, much to her great consternation!
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Janteloven (Jante's law) of Denmark is rather similar. [0] Also, doesn't English have the expression "Tall poppy syndrome"? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
  - krapp 4y ago
    Yeah, the premise that the concept of societal consequences for acting out or against the status quo is so alien to Western culture that Americans literally can't comprehend it is absurd. Also see "don't stick your neck out," "the squeaky wheel gets replaced," "don't rock the boat," "speech is silver, silence is golden", "shit rolls downhill", several Biblical proverbs and some Shakespeare.
    - e9 4y ago
      It’s funny because in Canada/US the saying is: “the squeaky wheel gets the grease” I’ve never ever seen “replaced” being used instead of “grease”.
- lazyeye 4y ago
  There was a time where there was a huge advantage to individualistic societies over collectivist. Rule-breakers built the companies, invented the technologies that super-charged their economies. Now in a modern, globalized world any new technologies are immediately imported(stolen?) and produced more cheaply and exported back undercutting/crippling the benefits that would otherwise have been had.
  - e9 4y ago
    You can only go so far as a society copying work of others. You can’t progress without innovation and if innovation is happening in other parts of the world then your are highly dependent on them. The society that produces innovation is never crippled because others are copying them.
    - lazyeye 4y ago
      Yes they are if they if the competitors are able to produce goods much more cheaply due to not having to sustain the cost of environmental/labour regulations. And for the most part, its winner takes all.

joe__f 4y ago

What's your objection to people needing spaces where they feel safe? I'm currently healing from PTSD and I can get triggered by a wide range of different situations and have flashbacks which last hours. I attend a community centre at a local mental health charity which is a space I feel safe in, and I'm not really able socialise in many other spaces at present. Am I correct in inferring from your comment that you think I would be better off in a culture where I was ridiculed for needing a space like this? Or did I misunderstand what you're saying?

fisf 4y ago
No. In particular, the issue is that PTSD is a (mental) illness and deserves our understanding and help. However, it is not helpful to shape all of society around this.
- joe__f 4y ago
  What would be an example of someone who claims that they need a safe space, but does not deserve understanding and help? I'm not sure about shaping all of society, but it seems reasonable to me that there would be many other people with different circumstances to me who also need safe spaces