3 ms·

> Why is it that I am comfortable crossing the intersection when I have a green light? Because I have confidence that those who would break the social contract

> Why is it that I am comfortable crossing the intersection when I have a green light? Because I have confidence that those who would break the social contract of following agreed upon laws will be punished, so they are deterred from breaking them. It's really quite telling that in countries where religious strictures are held to be more important than individual freedom, like the US, the prevailing attitude is that "people will only do the right thing if they are afraid of being punished if they don't". Whereas, in a country like the UK, with considerably more rights and freedoms and less reliance on Judeo-Christian religion, the idea is that "people will do the right thing, because they expect others to do the right thing in return".

ericmcer 4y ago
That isn’t unique to the UK, every country has a moral code and the general populace will be hesitant to break it. Why do you think most people are willing to try drugs but very few would assault someone and steal their money. Both are illegal.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  People in European countries - including the UK, despite what the right-wing Brexit idiots might think - tend not to steal not because they're afraid of getting caught but because they wouldn't want to be stolen from. More people are willing to take drugs illegally than they are to steal, because taking drugs does not directly deprive someone else of something. If you want to compare different kinds of theft, look at the difference between piracy versus shoplifting versus housebreaking. Most people of even a fairly high moral compass are okay with torrenting stuff because Disney has enough money and even a huge amount of people illegally downloading a movie that they wouldn't have paid to see anyway doesn't really "harm" Disney in any way. It is "theft of service", in that there are still the same number of physical copies and no-one has lost any physical goods, but someone somewhere has not been paid for their time. If you shoplifted a DVD, there would be one less DVD in that shop, that ultimately someone has paid for so it can be on the shelf. This breaks down further - you might shoplift it from Asda because (again) Asda has enough money, but you might not shoplift it from Wee Mad Bob's Magic Videos, because everyone knows Wee Mad Bob and he's an great guy who's struggling enough to keep his shop open, especially with the big new Asda opening up a video section. If you broke into someone's house, you'd be taking the conscious decision to enter someone else's space, and remove something they have chosen to have in their home. That crosses far more morality contour lines than buying a bit of shitty homegrown from some guy down the pub. TL;DR the US is more right-leaning and right-wing views tend to be amoral and "stealing is okay as long as you don't get caught", whereas Europe is more left-leaning and moral, and "stealing is not okay, because you wouldn't like it either".
  - ericmcer 4y ago
    This is a hilarious take. Your post is long but is essentially saying Europeans (but not right wing ones) more fully embrace "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That you are more inclined towards the Judeo-Christian moral ideal than Americans. (Also strange as right wing parties have strong religious associations). Is your claim that Europeans have stronger/older ties to religion? Or that you are just better than Americans in some intangible manner.
WaitWaitWha 4y ago
I am not sure that your two points are counter to each other. I can be both afraid of being punished and can think that people will do the right thing. I sort of eluded to this, but you said it better, and help me crystalize it.
gunshowmo 4y ago
In what way does the UK have "considerably more rights and freedoms" than the US?
- ojhughes 4y ago
  Kids have the freedom to go to school without fear of being shot. Mothers have the right to take 6 months paid maternity leave. Workers generally have more rights and protections, although this is getting worse.
- watwut 4y ago
  Less fear of everything. Kids are mote likely to move freely around the town too.
- Gordonjcp 4y ago
  You don't have armed police ready to shoot you because they don't like the look of you. There is no concept of "jaywalking", and indeed the idea that you'd get fined or even arrested for crossing the street is considered bizarre. You won't be sent to prison for the rest of your life for having a microscopic crumb of hash. You won't get bankrupted by hospital bills from a minor injury. You're not expected to work until you drop, with no paid annual leave or or sick leave. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
nickelpro 4y ago
Rules and consequences exist because people have different ideas about what "the right thing" is, not because society thinks people are inherently immoral. Very few individuals believe their actions unjustified or that they are "the bad guy". If we went only be individuals self-assessment of their actions, there would be very few criminals.

ericmcer 4y ago

That isn’t unique to the UK, every country has a moral code and the general populace will be hesitant to break it. Why do you think most people are willing to try drugs but very few would assault someone and steal their money. Both are illegal.

Gordonjcp 4y ago
People in European countries - including the UK, despite what the right-wing Brexit idiots might think - tend not to steal not because they're afraid of getting caught but because they wouldn't want to be stolen from. More people are willing to take drugs illegally than they are to steal, because taking drugs does not directly deprive someone else of something. If you want to compare different kinds of theft, look at the difference between piracy versus shoplifting versus housebreaking. Most people of even a fairly high moral compass are okay with torrenting stuff because Disney has enough money and even a huge amount of people illegally downloading a movie that they wouldn't have paid to see anyway doesn't really "harm" Disney in any way. It is "theft of service", in that there are still the same number of physical copies and no-one has lost any physical goods, but someone somewhere has not been paid for their time. If you shoplifted a DVD, there would be one less DVD in that shop, that ultimately someone has paid for so it can be on the shelf. This breaks down further - you might shoplift it from Asda because (again) Asda has enough money, but you might not shoplift it from Wee Mad Bob's Magic Videos, because everyone knows Wee Mad Bob and he's an great guy who's struggling enough to keep his shop open, especially with the big new Asda opening up a video section. If you broke into someone's house, you'd be taking the conscious decision to enter someone else's space, and remove something they have chosen to have in their home. That crosses far more morality contour lines than buying a bit of shitty homegrown from some guy down the pub. TL;DR the US is more right-leaning and right-wing views tend to be amoral and "stealing is okay as long as you don't get caught", whereas Europe is more left-leaning and moral, and "stealing is not okay, because you wouldn't like it either".
- ericmcer 4y ago
  This is a hilarious take. Your post is long but is essentially saying Europeans (but not right wing ones) more fully embrace "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". That you are more inclined towards the Judeo-Christian moral ideal than Americans. (Also strange as right wing parties have strong religious associations). Is your claim that Europeans have stronger/older ties to religion? Or that you are just better than Americans in some intangible manner.

WaitWaitWha 4y ago

I am not sure that your two points are counter to each other. I can be both afraid of being punished and can think that people will do the right thing. I sort of eluded to this, but you said it better, and help me crystalize it.

gunshowmo 4y ago

In what way does the UK have "considerably more rights and freedoms" than the US?

ojhughes 4y ago
Kids have the freedom to go to school without fear of being shot. Mothers have the right to take 6 months paid maternity leave. Workers generally have more rights and protections, although this is getting worse.
watwut 4y ago
Less fear of everything. Kids are mote likely to move freely around the town too.
Gordonjcp 4y ago
You don't have armed police ready to shoot you because they don't like the look of you. There is no concept of "jaywalking", and indeed the idea that you'd get fined or even arrested for crossing the street is considered bizarre. You won't be sent to prison for the rest of your life for having a microscopic crumb of hash. You won't get bankrupted by hospital bills from a minor injury. You're not expected to work until you drop, with no paid annual leave or or sick leave. I could go on, but I think I've made my point.

nickelpro 4y ago

Rules and consequences exist because people have different ideas about what "the right thing" is, not because society thinks people are inherently immoral. Very few individuals believe their actions unjustified or that they are "the bad guy". If we went only be individuals self-assessment of their actions, there would be very few criminals.