4 ms·

Punishment/revenge is satisfying to a lot of people, but I'm repulsed by it. I don't feel an instinct to punish people who have wronged me, and I feel just as b

Punishment/revenge is satisfying to a lot of people, but I'm repulsed by it. I don't feel an instinct to punish people who have wronged me, and I feel just as bad for people who are suffering regardless of what they did before. I wonder what makes me different from people who favour punishment. Is it just because I was never punished as a child, or is there a neurological difference?

superchroma 4y ago
it's definitely a base instinct. When I'm stressed and preoccupied, lashing out is certainly easier than when calm. I also wonder how people rationalize seeking punishment. More often than not, no forced act can undo wrought damage, particularly emotional damage, and people don't really feel better seeing others suffer, even if that's what they believe they want. People also are extremely prone to forgetting the core intent of society's justice system and prisons, which is (or should be) reform, which is sad. Many balk at the idea that prison is humane in any dimension. We have a lot of growing to do :(
- wizofaus 4y ago
  I don't have an issue that the threat of prison is a useful deterrent, therefore it needs to obviously be a less desirable option than whatever lives people live now. But nor should it ever be inhumane. The big problem with prisons is that those put there consequently spend a significant period of their lives interacting with nobody but criminals (and prison guards, who aren't exactly known for their ability to inspire the best in others). I'd wager a significant number of career criminals only end up making those life choices after spending time inside. OTOH reform is genuinely hard and not often successful.
  - dolni 4y ago
    Personally, I think prison ought to be structured a lot more like life outside prison. You teach people what they need to do to be successful outside, which has some obvious benefits. Provide for jobs, pay a reasonable market wage, a fair amount of paid time off and/or sick leave. Then teach them how to pay bills and prioritize. Charge reasonable rates for accommodations, food, and amenities. Let people upgrade their room for an increased monthly fee. Maybe they can pay for cable. If someone wants a steak on their birthday, they can splurge and get one -- but it will cost them more than their usual meal. Now you're probably asking: "but what if they refuse to work?" I say: the same thing that happens outside a prison. You don't work, you don't get paid. You don't get paid, you can't buy food. You can't buy food, you don't eat. The problem will solve itself after a while.
karmakurtisaani 4y ago
I'm on the same boat as you. I feel like when we do things that would be emotionally satisfying as a reaction to something, it is almost always the wrong thing to do in the bigger picture. The space of possible reactions is infinite, and picking the first choice coming to mind just feels totally wrong.
dolni 4y ago
Have you ever been wronged in a substantial way? Something that shook you so much, that you carried it with you for months or years afterwards? It's the kind of thing that when it happens, you think: "I wish nobody else had to go through what I did". If you haven't, consider yourself lucky. Some of us aren't so.
- 57457802 4y ago
  Yes, I would say I have. I have been sexually assaulted for example, but that doesn't mean I want the person who did it to suffer as well. That would just mean more suffering.
  - dolni 4y ago
    So you would be okay with the person you assaulted you not facing consequences, like prison?
    - 57457802 4y ago
      I am okay with that. I don't gain anything by another person's suffering. It would make me feel worse, not better, and it would make the world a worse place because prison generally makes people worse. It would also expose other prisoners to a predator they can't avoid as easily as someone on the outside can. It would be a lose-lose for everyone.
      - dolni 4y ago
        Honestly, that sounds selfish. Plenty of others gain from a system of justice where heinous acts are deterred. And you do too, even if you don't acknowledge it. Prisons can and should do better. But you are incredibly naive if you think there aren't people in the world whose only deterrence is prison or violent retribution.
        57457802 4y ago
        I disagree. There is no evidence deterrence works, and I think it's very unlikely that there are people who want to commit sexual assault who would decide that it's not worth the risk if more people were punished. I don't think people work that way. If you are thinking about citing the Italian study[0] that people always cite in respond arguments against deterrence. My response is that it's way more likely that 1 month less in prison is what caused the lower re-offending rare, not the threat of 1 month more in prison if they re-offend. [0]: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/599286 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/599286

superchroma 4y ago

it's definitely a base instinct. When I'm stressed and preoccupied, lashing out is certainly easier than when calm. I also wonder how people rationalize seeking punishment. More often than not, no forced act can undo wrought damage, particularly emotional damage, and people don't really feel better seeing others suffer, even if that's what they believe they want. People also are extremely prone to forgetting the core intent of society's justice system and prisons, which is (or should be) reform, which is sad. Many balk at the idea that prison is humane in any dimension. We have a lot of growing to do :(

wizofaus 4y ago
I don't have an issue that the threat of prison is a useful deterrent, therefore it needs to obviously be a less desirable option than whatever lives people live now. But nor should it ever be inhumane. The big problem with prisons is that those put there consequently spend a significant period of their lives interacting with nobody but criminals (and prison guards, who aren't exactly known for their ability to inspire the best in others). I'd wager a significant number of career criminals only end up making those life choices after spending time inside. OTOH reform is genuinely hard and not often successful.
- dolni 4y ago
  Personally, I think prison ought to be structured a lot more like life outside prison. You teach people what they need to do to be successful outside, which has some obvious benefits. Provide for jobs, pay a reasonable market wage, a fair amount of paid time off and/or sick leave. Then teach them how to pay bills and prioritize. Charge reasonable rates for accommodations, food, and amenities. Let people upgrade their room for an increased monthly fee. Maybe they can pay for cable. If someone wants a steak on their birthday, they can splurge and get one -- but it will cost them more than their usual meal. Now you're probably asking: "but what if they refuse to work?" I say: the same thing that happens outside a prison. You don't work, you don't get paid. You don't get paid, you can't buy food. You can't buy food, you don't eat. The problem will solve itself after a while.

karmakurtisaani 4y ago

I'm on the same boat as you. I feel like when we do things that would be emotionally satisfying as a reaction to something, it is almost always the wrong thing to do in the bigger picture. The space of possible reactions is infinite, and picking the first choice coming to mind just feels totally wrong.

dolni 4y ago

Have you ever been wronged in a substantial way? Something that shook you so much, that you carried it with you for months or years afterwards? It's the kind of thing that when it happens, you think: "I wish nobody else had to go through what I did". If you haven't, consider yourself lucky. Some of us aren't so.

57457802 4y ago
Yes, I would say I have. I have been sexually assaulted for example, but that doesn't mean I want the person who did it to suffer as well. That would just mean more suffering.
- dolni 4y ago
  So you would be okay with the person you assaulted you not facing consequences, like prison?
  - 57457802 4y ago
    I am okay with that. I don't gain anything by another person's suffering. It would make me feel worse, not better, and it would make the world a worse place because prison generally makes people worse. It would also expose other prisoners to a predator they can't avoid as easily as someone on the outside can. It would be a lose-lose for everyone.
    - dolni 4y ago
      Honestly, that sounds selfish. Plenty of others gain from a system of justice where heinous acts are deterred. And you do too, even if you don't acknowledge it. Prisons can and should do better. But you are incredibly naive if you think there aren't people in the world whose only deterrence is prison or violent retribution.
      - 57457802 4y ago
        I disagree. There is no evidence deterrence works, and I think it's very unlikely that there are people who want to commit sexual assault who would decide that it's not worth the risk if more people were punished. I don't think people work that way. If you are thinking about citing the Italian study[0] that people always cite in respond arguments against deterrence. My response is that it's way more likely that 1 month less in prison is what caused the lower re-offending rare, not the threat of 1 month more in prison if they re-offend. [0]: https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/599286 https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/599286