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> it's quite clear that humans can happily survive whether they eat animal products or not Perhaps, but survival is not the only point of eating and shouldn't

> it's quite clear that humans can happily survive whether they eat animal products or not Perhaps, but survival is not the only point of eating and shouldn't be the ultimate measure of your success as a human being. A balanced meat-free diet is not easy. You need to be very aware of the compromises you're making and compensate for them either through much more thought put into your food choices or supplementation. The BBC published an interesting article a while ago on the topic [0]. > Whether somebody is vegan or not in the modern world is much more to do with the social situation that they find themselves in, along with the availability of vegan foods that appeal to their tastes than anything to do with chimpanzees. This seems to be a case of science and culture working around biology. It doesn't really contradict the biological argument. [0] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet...

wszfahwbwbaha 4y ago
it's really not that hard that's just meat propaganda. Been vegan 10 years and still somehow manage to boulder at a high level without even thinking about my diet
- sinsterizme 4y ago
  That’s great for you, but it’s quite common for vegans to suffer from b12 deficiency. And that’s just a commonly tested one but meat also contains iron, taurine, creatine, and a lot more that is hard to get from non meat sources. Personally I went low meat (not even close to vegan) and suffered. My b12 was low normal, yet I definitely felt the effects.
  - drooby 4y ago
    Just want to add that I eat mostly vegetarian/vegan and bouldering at v4 level. Also very easily gaining muscle and not thinking too much about my diet. Just paid for every possible blood test that my doctor could provide and everything was in healthy ranges. Truth is… taking a b12 vitamin a few times per week and having some vegan protein shakes a few times per week is super easy. Truth is… there a lot of vegans that just don’t have super basic knowledge about the diet. But it’s actually super easy to figure it out if you put in maybe 1-2 days of research. Also, something like one third of all Americans have low-normal b12 levels. A lot more people should be supplementing in general.
    - therealdrag0 4y ago
      What vegan shake you have?
      - drooby 4y ago
        Currently using Orgain Peanut Butter and Vega Chocolate. The Vega one has some extra minerals and vitamins which is nice. Both are super delicious. Tip... add a splash of vegan creamer to the shake before mixing. I like to add Trader Joe's brown sugar oat creamer and it makes it heavenly.
        therealdrag0 4y ago
        Cool. Gotchya. I’m not vegan but I drink Huel vanilla for breakfast which is vegan.
    - Maursault 4y ago
      > But it’s actually super easy to figure it out if you put in maybe 1-2 days of research. Vegans always say this. It is not true, or it is only half true, because you may gain the knowledge but very often still not have any options. I am vegetarian (cheese is my protein source because though I love the bean, it is a bitch to prepare). I am terrible at vegetarianism, but it isn't my fault. Nearly everything available has some animal byproduct in it, and nearly everything available is also not all that healthy, filled with sugar and salt. It takes something like a detective's mind and drive to sift through a grocery store and find things that are actually good for you unless you prepare every meal from its most basic constituents. On the road? Good luck finding vegan or vegetarian meals. I honestly find it offensive that everything everywhere is based on the meat eater's diet with either one single or no decent alternative menu item, which is just as likely to be mac and cheese. It is terribly annoying and difficult to eat healthy and vegetarian, let alone vegan, especially in the South and in the sticks. It takes virtuous dedication and extreme vigilance, while carnivores need take no effort whatsoever. I don't understand why there isn't a vegan/vegetarian national chain restaurant, and one without bazaar menu items no one's ever heard of. Veggie fast food is a great idea, would draw crowds, but it simply does not exist. Why isn't half the frozen section filled with vegetarian and healthy TV dinners? Why isn't the free market pouncing on providing healthy, simply healthy, food? Basic, square, vegetarian food is all I am after, and not finding it means I am pretty much starving myself and settling for meals that really aren't all that nutritious.
- cassianoleal 4y ago
  Your argument is basically "it's meat propaganda, here's my personal anecdote to prove it". Here's my anecdote: I was vegetarian (not even vegan!) for a whole year. I was careful to eat a balanced diet, a lot of beans, legumes, veggies, green leaves. Very little sugar and alcohol. I was constantly tired (I thought it would go away after a month or 2), had many physical injuries and was irritable, where I'm usually quite calm. I decided vegetarianism was not for me. Now I still care about my diet but not enough to actually try to balance nearly as much. I eat a lot more sugar (trying to reduce but it's hard when you have a sweet tooth) and even the occasional alcohol. I'm a lot older than then, and yet I'm generally more rested, stronger, have better focus and injuries don't take as long to recover. Does that prove vegetarianism is bad and eating meat is the only way? Is vegetarianism just anti-meat propaganda? Absolutely not.
captainbland 4y ago
The point from the article that I'm really concerned with is: > It is well to keep this biological fact in mind when considering outlandish claims about the imminent victory of veganism. And while 'victory' is loosely defined, appears to come from the idea that: > much of the world is trending towards plant-based eating My point is exactly that if the "work around" (as you put it) works then the argument that biological history will necessarily prevent veganism from becoming more popular no longer really holds, precisely because we can "work around" it. I don't really take issue with the idea that biology has to one degree or another helped to shape dietary habits today, just that the historical trend may not hold in the future in the face of social (which I take to include scientific) change.
someNameIG 4y ago
> A balanced meat-free diet is not easy. I've been vegan for years and I haven't really found this to be the case^. B12 is really the only thing you need to supplement, and a lot of vegan products have it it also. You also read anything online about becoming vegan and they all recommend B12 supplements. ^I also used chronometer for years so I hade a decent understanding of my macron micro nutritional intake.
- adrian_b 4y ago
  You need to supplement vegetables with many substances that are not required when eating enough animal food. However, when buying food that is labelled as vegan this is not always obvious, because it might already include various supplements, and also some of the supplements required by vegetable food can be obtained from minerals, so it is easy to get them while avoiding animal sources. The most important substances that are not contained in adequate quantities in vegetables: vitamin B12, vitamin D, DHA (omega-3 fatty acid), EPA (omega-3 fatty acid), choline, taurine, iodine, calcium, sodium. While everybody mentions that it is possible to get an adequate intake of proteins by mixing cereals with legumes, what is not usually discussed is that the quantities that must be eaten are quite large. For example an adequate daily protein intake for a male of my weight is provided by 500 g of wheat floor plus 167 g of lentils per day. Someone who does heavy physical work might be able to eat so much in a day, but if I would eat this quantity, I would gain weight extremely fast, because wheat floor and lentils contain much more starch than proteins, so they provide too much energy. So the only way to eat that quantity, is to divide the wheat floor into 2 half portions, use one for home-made bread and the other for making gluten, while dumping the starch from it. Only by wasting time with making gluten at home, it is possible to eat enough vegan proteins while also spending less money than when eating meat. In Europe, where I live, the cost of proteins from chicken breast is 3 times the cost of proteins from wheat floor and 2.5 times the cost of proteins from lentils. So if you buy wheat floor and lentils and you cook them at home, it would be cheaper than buying chicken breast. If you buy any kind of processed food made from vegetables, you end spending much more for ensuring an adequate protein intake than when buying chicken breast. Even bread costs 2 to 6 times more per protein content than wheat floor, so only the most basic bread is cheaper than chicken breast. The commercial protein extracts from vegetables, aimed at vegans, have a price many times higher than meat. In conclusion, I also agree that "a balanced meat-free diet is not easy". There are only 2 choices to achieve it, either spend much more money than a meat-eater, or spend more time with cooking at home than a meat-eater. There are also many vegans who do not know how to supplement correctly their food, because they repeat the myth that "only B12 is needed", so they eventually develop various health problems, as also testified in a few of the other comments posted here.
tartrate 4y ago
Debunked https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-news/opinion-vegan-diets-and-intelligence-beyond-clickbait https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-...

wszfahwbwbaha 4y ago

it's really not that hard that's just meat propaganda. Been vegan 10 years and still somehow manage to boulder at a high level without even thinking about my diet

sinsterizme 4y ago
That’s great for you, but it’s quite common for vegans to suffer from b12 deficiency. And that’s just a commonly tested one but meat also contains iron, taurine, creatine, and a lot more that is hard to get from non meat sources. Personally I went low meat (not even close to vegan) and suffered. My b12 was low normal, yet I definitely felt the effects.
- drooby 4y ago
  Just want to add that I eat mostly vegetarian/vegan and bouldering at v4 level. Also very easily gaining muscle and not thinking too much about my diet. Just paid for every possible blood test that my doctor could provide and everything was in healthy ranges. Truth is… taking a b12 vitamin a few times per week and having some vegan protein shakes a few times per week is super easy. Truth is… there a lot of vegans that just don’t have super basic knowledge about the diet. But it’s actually super easy to figure it out if you put in maybe 1-2 days of research. Also, something like one third of all Americans have low-normal b12 levels. A lot more people should be supplementing in general.
  - therealdrag0 4y ago
    What vegan shake you have?
    - drooby 4y ago
      Currently using Orgain Peanut Butter and Vega Chocolate. The Vega one has some extra minerals and vitamins which is nice. Both are super delicious. Tip... add a splash of vegan creamer to the shake before mixing. I like to add Trader Joe's brown sugar oat creamer and it makes it heavenly.
      - therealdrag0 4y ago
        Cool. Gotchya. I’m not vegan but I drink Huel vanilla for breakfast which is vegan.
  - Maursault 4y ago
    > But it’s actually super easy to figure it out if you put in maybe 1-2 days of research. Vegans always say this. It is not true, or it is only half true, because you may gain the knowledge but very often still not have any options. I am vegetarian (cheese is my protein source because though I love the bean, it is a bitch to prepare). I am terrible at vegetarianism, but it isn't my fault. Nearly everything available has some animal byproduct in it, and nearly everything available is also not all that healthy, filled with sugar and salt. It takes something like a detective's mind and drive to sift through a grocery store and find things that are actually good for you unless you prepare every meal from its most basic constituents. On the road? Good luck finding vegan or vegetarian meals. I honestly find it offensive that everything everywhere is based on the meat eater's diet with either one single or no decent alternative menu item, which is just as likely to be mac and cheese. It is terribly annoying and difficult to eat healthy and vegetarian, let alone vegan, especially in the South and in the sticks. It takes virtuous dedication and extreme vigilance, while carnivores need take no effort whatsoever. I don't understand why there isn't a vegan/vegetarian national chain restaurant, and one without bazaar menu items no one's ever heard of. Veggie fast food is a great idea, would draw crowds, but it simply does not exist. Why isn't half the frozen section filled with vegetarian and healthy TV dinners? Why isn't the free market pouncing on providing healthy, simply healthy, food? Basic, square, vegetarian food is all I am after, and not finding it means I am pretty much starving myself and settling for meals that really aren't all that nutritious.
cassianoleal 4y ago
Your argument is basically "it's meat propaganda, here's my personal anecdote to prove it". Here's my anecdote: I was vegetarian (not even vegan!) for a whole year. I was careful to eat a balanced diet, a lot of beans, legumes, veggies, green leaves. Very little sugar and alcohol. I was constantly tired (I thought it would go away after a month or 2), had many physical injuries and was irritable, where I'm usually quite calm. I decided vegetarianism was not for me. Now I still care about my diet but not enough to actually try to balance nearly as much. I eat a lot more sugar (trying to reduce but it's hard when you have a sweet tooth) and even the occasional alcohol. I'm a lot older than then, and yet I'm generally more rested, stronger, have better focus and injuries don't take as long to recover. Does that prove vegetarianism is bad and eating meat is the only way? Is vegetarianism just anti-meat propaganda? Absolutely not.

captainbland 4y ago

The point from the article that I'm really concerned with is: > It is well to keep this biological fact in mind when considering outlandish claims about the imminent victory of veganism. And while 'victory' is loosely defined, appears to come from the idea that: > much of the world is trending towards plant-based eating My point is exactly that if the "work around" (as you put it) works then the argument that biological history will necessarily prevent veganism from becoming more popular no longer really holds, precisely because we can "work around" it. I don't really take issue with the idea that biology has to one degree or another helped to shape dietary habits today, just that the historical trend may not hold in the future in the face of social (which I take to include scientific) change.

someNameIG 4y ago

> A balanced meat-free diet is not easy. I've been vegan for years and I haven't really found this to be the case^. B12 is really the only thing you need to supplement, and a lot of vegan products have it it also. You also read anything online about becoming vegan and they all recommend B12 supplements. ^I also used chronometer for years so I hade a decent understanding of my macron micro nutritional intake.

adrian_b 4y ago
You need to supplement vegetables with many substances that are not required when eating enough animal food. However, when buying food that is labelled as vegan this is not always obvious, because it might already include various supplements, and also some of the supplements required by vegetable food can be obtained from minerals, so it is easy to get them while avoiding animal sources. The most important substances that are not contained in adequate quantities in vegetables: vitamin B12, vitamin D, DHA (omega-3 fatty acid), EPA (omega-3 fatty acid), choline, taurine, iodine, calcium, sodium. While everybody mentions that it is possible to get an adequate intake of proteins by mixing cereals with legumes, what is not usually discussed is that the quantities that must be eaten are quite large. For example an adequate daily protein intake for a male of my weight is provided by 500 g of wheat floor plus 167 g of lentils per day. Someone who does heavy physical work might be able to eat so much in a day, but if I would eat this quantity, I would gain weight extremely fast, because wheat floor and lentils contain much more starch than proteins, so they provide too much energy. So the only way to eat that quantity, is to divide the wheat floor into 2 half portions, use one for home-made bread and the other for making gluten, while dumping the starch from it. Only by wasting time with making gluten at home, it is possible to eat enough vegan proteins while also spending less money than when eating meat. In Europe, where I live, the cost of proteins from chicken breast is 3 times the cost of proteins from wheat floor and 2.5 times the cost of proteins from lentils. So if you buy wheat floor and lentils and you cook them at home, it would be cheaper than buying chicken breast. If you buy any kind of processed food made from vegetables, you end spending much more for ensuring an adequate protein intake than when buying chicken breast. Even bread costs 2 to 6 times more per protein content than wheat floor, so only the most basic bread is cheaper than chicken breast. The commercial protein extracts from vegetables, aimed at vegans, have a price many times higher than meat. In conclusion, I also agree that "a balanced meat-free diet is not easy". There are only 2 choices to achieve it, either spend much more money than a meat-eater, or spend more time with cooking at home than a meat-eater. There are also many vegans who do not know how to supplement correctly their food, because they repeat the myth that "only B12 is needed", so they eventually develop various health problems, as also testified in a few of the other comments posted here.

tartrate 4y ago

Debunked https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-news/opinion-vegan-diets-and-intelligence-beyond-clickbait https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-...