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I find the biology argument a little strange as it's quite clear that humans can happily survive whether they eat animal products or not. Whether somebody is ve

I find the biology argument a little strange as it's quite clear that humans can happily survive whether they eat animal products or not. Whether somebody is vegan or not in the modern world is much more to do with the social situation that they find themselves in, along with the availability of vegan foods that appeal to their tastes than anything to do with chimpanzees. It's also the case that there has been an explosion of choice in vegan foods, particularly meat substitutes, that has really only come around in the last few years. So looking at trends over a 50 year window isn't going to capture that. I'm not even a vegan, for what it's worth. But this article basically seems to hold up historical trends as immutable facts and extrapolates from there which is not very convincing in the changing situation that we find ourselves in.

cassianoleal 4y ago
> it's quite clear that humans can happily survive whether they eat animal products or not Perhaps, but survival is not the only point of eating and shouldn't be the ultimate measure of your success as a human being. A balanced meat-free diet is not easy. You need to be very aware of the compromises you're making and compensate for them either through much more thought put into your food choices or supplementation. The BBC published an interesting article a while ago on the topic [0]. > Whether somebody is vegan or not in the modern world is much more to do with the social situation that they find themselves in, along with the availability of vegan foods that appeal to their tastes than anything to do with chimpanzees. This seems to be a case of science and culture working around biology. It doesn't really contradict the biological argument. [0] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet...
- wszfahwbwbaha 4y ago
  it's really not that hard that's just meat propaganda. Been vegan 10 years and still somehow manage to boulder at a high level without even thinking about my diet
  - sinsterizme 4y ago
    That’s great for you, but it’s quite common for vegans to suffer from b12 deficiency. And that’s just a commonly tested one but meat also contains iron, taurine, creatine, and a lot more that is hard to get from non meat sources. Personally I went low meat (not even close to vegan) and suffered. My b12 was low normal, yet I definitely felt the effects.
    - drooby 4y ago
      Just want to add that I eat mostly vegetarian/vegan and bouldering at v4 level. Also very easily gaining muscle and not thinking too much about my diet. Just paid for every possible blood test that my doctor could provide and everything was in healthy ranges. Truth is… taking a b12 vitamin a few times per week and having some vegan protein shakes a few times per week is super easy. Truth is… there a lot of vegans that just don’t have super basic knowledge about the diet. But it’s actually super easy to figure it out if you put in maybe 1-2 days of research. Also, something like one third of all Americans have low-normal b12 levels. A lot more people should be supplementing in general.
      - therealdrag0 4y ago
        What vegan shake you have?
        drooby 4y ago
        Currently using Orgain Peanut Butter and Vega Chocolate. The Vega one has some extra minerals and vitamins which is nice. Both are super delicious. Tip... add a splash of vegan creamer to the shake before mixing. I like to add Trader Joe's brown sugar oat creamer and it makes it heavenly.
        therealdrag0 4y ago
        Cool. Gotchya. I’m not vegan but I drink Huel vanilla for breakfast which is vegan.
- captainbland 4y ago
  The point from the article that I'm really concerned with is: > It is well to keep this biological fact in mind when considering outlandish claims about the imminent victory of veganism. And while 'victory' is loosely defined, appears to come from the idea that: > much of the world is trending towards plant-based eating My point is exactly that if the "work around" (as you put it) works then the argument that biological history will necessarily prevent veganism from becoming more popular no longer really holds, precisely because we can "work around" it. I don't really take issue with the idea that biology has to one degree or another helped to shape dietary habits today, just that the historical trend may not hold in the future in the face of social (which I take to include scientific) change.
- someNameIG 4y ago
  > A balanced meat-free diet is not easy. I've been vegan for years and I haven't really found this to be the case^. B12 is really the only thing you need to supplement, and a lot of vegan products have it it also. You also read anything online about becoming vegan and they all recommend B12 supplements. ^I also used chronometer for years so I hade a decent understanding of my macron micro nutritional intake.
  - adrian_b 4y ago
    You need to supplement vegetables with many substances that are not required when eating enough animal food. However, when buying food that is labelled as vegan this is not always obvious, because it might already include various supplements, and also some of the supplements required by vegetable food can be obtained from minerals, so it is easy to get them while avoiding animal sources. The most important substances that are not contained in adequate quantities in vegetables: vitamin B12, vitamin D, DHA (omega-3 fatty acid), EPA (omega-3 fatty acid), choline, taurine, iodine, calcium, sodium. While everybody mentions that it is possible to get an adequate intake of proteins by mixing cereals with legumes, what is not usually discussed is that the quantities that must be eaten are quite large. For example an adequate daily protein intake for a male of my weight is provided by 500 g of wheat floor plus 167 g of lentils per day. Someone who does heavy physical work might be able to eat so much in a day, but if I would eat this quantity, I would gain weight extremely fast, because wheat floor and lentils contain much more starch than proteins, so they provide too much energy. So the only way to eat that quantity, is to divide the wheat floor into 2 half portions, use one for home-made bread and the other for making gluten, while dumping the starch from it. Only by wasting time with making gluten at home, it is possible to eat enough vegan proteins while also spending less money than when eating meat. In Europe, where I live, the cost of proteins from chicken breast is 3 times the cost of proteins from wheat floor and 2.5 times the cost of proteins from lentils. So if you buy wheat floor and lentils and you cook them at home, it would be cheaper than buying chicken breast. If you buy any kind of processed food made from vegetables, you end spending much more for ensuring an adequate protein intake than when buying chicken breast. Even bread costs 2 to 6 times more per protein content than wheat floor, so only the most basic bread is cheaper than chicken breast. The commercial protein extracts from vegetables, aimed at vegans, have a price many times higher than meat. In conclusion, I also agree that "a balanced meat-free diet is not easy". There are only 2 choices to achieve it, either spend much more money than a meat-eater, or spend more time with cooking at home than a meat-eater. There are also many vegans who do not know how to supplement correctly their food, because they repeat the myth that "only B12 is needed", so they eventually develop various health problems, as also testified in a few of the other comments posted here.
- tartrate 4y ago
  Debunked https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-news/opinion-vegan-diets-and-intelligence-beyond-clickbait https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-...
Cederfjard 4y ago
The thing is that you can’t look at evolution and sexual selection from the perspective of ”this particular thing makes the most sense or seems to be the optimum, and so of course nature has made things such”. An urge can be very strong and provide just a little benefit, and still remain. It can be weak and enormously beneficial, and still just be prevalent in a small part of the population. It can even be not beneficial at all, and just be a remnant from when it was, or even a byproduct of something else. So you can’t discount biology, especially when looking at the wider population, just because you think that for whatever reason whatever the thing that caused the evolutional pressure for the behavior you’re observing isn’t valid anymore. And even if that’s true, you’re probably lagging a few hundred, thousand or tens of thousands of years behind.
jokethrowaway 4y ago
I tried going almost meat free for a good decade (largely thanks to huel, which allow you to eat enough protein to workout). Everything was fine until I hit 30s. I started having serious stomach issues that doctors blamed on "stress" or the misteries of the gut. Over two years I dropped huel, gradually went back to meat, dairy and vegetables and grains. I still had painful, bloody and explosive episodes. I started eating a carnivore diet and all the symptoms disappeared in a week. I also lost 7kg. This made me revaluate everything I believed in nutrition. I realised that the reasons for introducing a vegetarian diet as part of USDA was pretty much baseless and that USDA backpedaled on fat consumption being bad. At this point I frankly doubt much of the research on nutrition and I'm not sure if I buy the reasons to avoid meat. Is there really a link between meat and cancer and cardio diseases or are you just trying to sell me some preprocessed vegan crap?
- HermanMartinus 4y ago
  You do realise you were eating a glorified protein powder and not a balanced diet? I think this is the problem you were experiencing, and has nothing to do with it being vegan or otherwise.

cassianoleal 4y ago

> it's quite clear that humans can happily survive whether they eat animal products or not Perhaps, but survival is not the only point of eating and shouldn't be the ultimate measure of your success as a human being. A balanced meat-free diet is not easy. You need to be very aware of the compromises you're making and compensate for them either through much more thought put into your food choices or supplementation. The BBC published an interesting article a while ago on the topic [0]. > Whether somebody is vegan or not in the modern world is much more to do with the social situation that they find themselves in, along with the availability of vegan foods that appeal to their tastes than anything to do with chimpanzees. This seems to be a case of science and culture working around biology. It doesn't really contradict the biological argument. [0] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet...

wszfahwbwbaha 4y ago
it's really not that hard that's just meat propaganda. Been vegan 10 years and still somehow manage to boulder at a high level without even thinking about my diet
- sinsterizme 4y ago
  That’s great for you, but it’s quite common for vegans to suffer from b12 deficiency. And that’s just a commonly tested one but meat also contains iron, taurine, creatine, and a lot more that is hard to get from non meat sources. Personally I went low meat (not even close to vegan) and suffered. My b12 was low normal, yet I definitely felt the effects.
  - drooby 4y ago
    Just want to add that I eat mostly vegetarian/vegan and bouldering at v4 level. Also very easily gaining muscle and not thinking too much about my diet. Just paid for every possible blood test that my doctor could provide and everything was in healthy ranges. Truth is… taking a b12 vitamin a few times per week and having some vegan protein shakes a few times per week is super easy. Truth is… there a lot of vegans that just don’t have super basic knowledge about the diet. But it’s actually super easy to figure it out if you put in maybe 1-2 days of research. Also, something like one third of all Americans have low-normal b12 levels. A lot more people should be supplementing in general.
    - therealdrag0 4y ago
      What vegan shake you have?
      - drooby 4y ago
        Currently using Orgain Peanut Butter and Vega Chocolate. The Vega one has some extra minerals and vitamins which is nice. Both are super delicious. Tip... add a splash of vegan creamer to the shake before mixing. I like to add Trader Joe's brown sugar oat creamer and it makes it heavenly.
        therealdrag0 4y ago
        Cool. Gotchya. I’m not vegan but I drink Huel vanilla for breakfast which is vegan.
captainbland 4y ago
The point from the article that I'm really concerned with is: > It is well to keep this biological fact in mind when considering outlandish claims about the imminent victory of veganism. And while 'victory' is loosely defined, appears to come from the idea that: > much of the world is trending towards plant-based eating My point is exactly that if the "work around" (as you put it) works then the argument that biological history will necessarily prevent veganism from becoming more popular no longer really holds, precisely because we can "work around" it. I don't really take issue with the idea that biology has to one degree or another helped to shape dietary habits today, just that the historical trend may not hold in the future in the face of social (which I take to include scientific) change.
someNameIG 4y ago
> A balanced meat-free diet is not easy. I've been vegan for years and I haven't really found this to be the case^. B12 is really the only thing you need to supplement, and a lot of vegan products have it it also. You also read anything online about becoming vegan and they all recommend B12 supplements. ^I also used chronometer for years so I hade a decent understanding of my macron micro nutritional intake.
- adrian_b 4y ago
  You need to supplement vegetables with many substances that are not required when eating enough animal food. However, when buying food that is labelled as vegan this is not always obvious, because it might already include various supplements, and also some of the supplements required by vegetable food can be obtained from minerals, so it is easy to get them while avoiding animal sources. The most important substances that are not contained in adequate quantities in vegetables: vitamin B12, vitamin D, DHA (omega-3 fatty acid), EPA (omega-3 fatty acid), choline, taurine, iodine, calcium, sodium. While everybody mentions that it is possible to get an adequate intake of proteins by mixing cereals with legumes, what is not usually discussed is that the quantities that must be eaten are quite large. For example an adequate daily protein intake for a male of my weight is provided by 500 g of wheat floor plus 167 g of lentils per day. Someone who does heavy physical work might be able to eat so much in a day, but if I would eat this quantity, I would gain weight extremely fast, because wheat floor and lentils contain much more starch than proteins, so they provide too much energy. So the only way to eat that quantity, is to divide the wheat floor into 2 half portions, use one for home-made bread and the other for making gluten, while dumping the starch from it. Only by wasting time with making gluten at home, it is possible to eat enough vegan proteins while also spending less money than when eating meat. In Europe, where I live, the cost of proteins from chicken breast is 3 times the cost of proteins from wheat floor and 2.5 times the cost of proteins from lentils. So if you buy wheat floor and lentils and you cook them at home, it would be cheaper than buying chicken breast. If you buy any kind of processed food made from vegetables, you end spending much more for ensuring an adequate protein intake than when buying chicken breast. Even bread costs 2 to 6 times more per protein content than wheat floor, so only the most basic bread is cheaper than chicken breast. The commercial protein extracts from vegetables, aimed at vegans, have a price many times higher than meat. In conclusion, I also agree that "a balanced meat-free diet is not easy". There are only 2 choices to achieve it, either spend much more money than a meat-eater, or spend more time with cooking at home than a meat-eater. There are also many vegans who do not know how to supplement correctly their food, because they repeat the myth that "only B12 is needed", so they eventually develop various health problems, as also testified in a few of the other comments posted here.
tartrate 4y ago
Debunked https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-news/opinion-vegan-diets-and-intelligence-beyond-clickbait https://www.vegansociety.com/get-involved/research/research-...

Cederfjard 4y ago

The thing is that you can’t look at evolution and sexual selection from the perspective of ”this particular thing makes the most sense or seems to be the optimum, and so of course nature has made things such”. An urge can be very strong and provide just a little benefit, and still remain. It can be weak and enormously beneficial, and still just be prevalent in a small part of the population. It can even be not beneficial at all, and just be a remnant from when it was, or even a byproduct of something else. So you can’t discount biology, especially when looking at the wider population, just because you think that for whatever reason whatever the thing that caused the evolutional pressure for the behavior you’re observing isn’t valid anymore. And even if that’s true, you’re probably lagging a few hundred, thousand or tens of thousands of years behind.

jokethrowaway 4y ago

I tried going almost meat free for a good decade (largely thanks to huel, which allow you to eat enough protein to workout). Everything was fine until I hit 30s. I started having serious stomach issues that doctors blamed on "stress" or the misteries of the gut. Over two years I dropped huel, gradually went back to meat, dairy and vegetables and grains. I still had painful, bloody and explosive episodes. I started eating a carnivore diet and all the symptoms disappeared in a week. I also lost 7kg. This made me revaluate everything I believed in nutrition. I realised that the reasons for introducing a vegetarian diet as part of USDA was pretty much baseless and that USDA backpedaled on fat consumption being bad. At this point I frankly doubt much of the research on nutrition and I'm not sure if I buy the reasons to avoid meat. Is there really a link between meat and cancer and cardio diseases or are you just trying to sell me some preprocessed vegan crap?

HermanMartinus 4y ago
You do realise you were eating a glorified protein powder and not a balanced diet? I think this is the problem you were experiencing, and has nothing to do with it being vegan or otherwise.