4 ms·

These are EVs which cost ~3-5x the price of the average car though.

by fooker 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
Retric 4y ago
Average new car in the US costs more than 40k so it’s not a 3x price premium. They aren’t cheap but that’s about what car companies are selling not the technology. People view 350 mile ranges as a luxury feature but they don’t require that much extra battery over a 250 mile range.
- fooker 4y ago
  That is misleading because US car sales are heavily tilted towards trucks. What's the average for sedans and how does it compare to the Tesla Model S long range?
- lvass 4y ago
  Average new car in brazil is 12~15k and that includes a ton of taxes, EVs are often 6~10x price premium as they're also heavily taxed. They're also used 30+ years which would mean like 6 battery replacements, the batteries alone would likely cost more than a whole car plus it's lifetime fuel in Brazil unless it's a heavily used vehicle like a shift-rented uber. I suspect the battery manufacturing would also be far worse than the lifetime of alcohol for the environment, but that depends a lot on how each is made.
  - Retric 4y ago
    Batteries are lasting much longer as the pack sizes increase and chemistry improves. Unless you’re planning on driving 1 million miles you shouldn’t need to replace the battery on a long range EV. Meanwhile paying for 30 years of gas adds up, especially when fuel economy decreases with age.
    - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
      > Meanwhile paying for 30 years of gas adds up, I've seen this point come up a lot. The energy used to recharge batteries right now is being mostly produced using traditional means of power production, mostly fossil. So in the end we are only shifting costs, not really saving. Another important point not being discussed is that used vehicles are dirty cheap (easily under 1k) and can still run with very little engine maintenance with the only cost being fuel. With the energy crisis we are living, I'm not sure EV are going to cost so much less than ICE to operate. If you need to change tires or get into an accident and the car needs repairs, it doesn't matter if it's an EV or an ICE, You still have to pay for it and probably the EV cannot be repaired by a gas station mechanic. The same gas station worker might lose business due to EVs becoming more popular and that's not gonna be cheap economically and socially. Before it's gonna be cheaper, we need to completely overhaul the way transport economics works. I don't have the slightest idea of how long it is gonna take, but it's not gonna be tomorrow.
      - Retric 4y ago
        Environmentally a great deal of CO2 comes from to extracting crude oil, transport, refine, and distribute gasoline. Roughly 1kg of CO2 per gallon of gas is released just in the refining process while 8.9kg comes from actually burning the fuel. Next out of global electricity production 16% is hydro, 10.3% nuclear, 5.3% is wind, and solar is 2.5%. And wind and solar numbers are rapidly trending upwards. The 23% from Natural gas is also vastly cleaner both from extremely efficient turbines and because of inherent advantages to the fuel. It’s only the 36.7% that from coal where the numbers come close while still slightly favoring EV’s per mile.
        lvass 4y ago
        >It’s only the 36.7% that from coal where the numbers come close The problem is, when you add that demand to your power grid, is that increasing the supply of hydro, nuclear, wind, or solar? In practice, the extra demand from EVs only increases the correlated amount of coal used as that is where the excess of potential electricity generation is, for now.
greenthrow 4y ago
That is not remotely true and hasn't been true for about a decade.
- fooker 4y ago
  What's the cheapest EV with a 350+ miles range?
Tagbert 4y ago
2023 Chevy Bolt EV with 259 mile range has a starting price of $25,600
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  259 miles is also less than 350+ miles

These are EVs which cost ~3-5x the price of the average car though.

by fooker 4y ago

These are EVs which cost ~3-5x the price of the average car though.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Retric 4y ago

Average new car in the US costs more than 40k so it’s not a 3x price premium. They aren’t cheap but that’s about what car companies are selling not the technology. People view 350 mile ranges as a luxury feature but they don’t require that much extra battery over a 250 mile range.

fooker 4y ago
That is misleading because US car sales are heavily tilted towards trucks. What's the average for sedans and how does it compare to the Tesla Model S long range?
lvass 4y ago
Average new car in brazil is 12~15k and that includes a ton of taxes, EVs are often 6~10x price premium as they're also heavily taxed. They're also used 30+ years which would mean like 6 battery replacements, the batteries alone would likely cost more than a whole car plus it's lifetime fuel in Brazil unless it's a heavily used vehicle like a shift-rented uber. I suspect the battery manufacturing would also be far worse than the lifetime of alcohol for the environment, but that depends a lot on how each is made.
- Retric 4y ago
  Batteries are lasting much longer as the pack sizes increase and chemistry improves. Unless you’re planning on driving 1 million miles you shouldn’t need to replace the battery on a long range EV. Meanwhile paying for 30 years of gas adds up, especially when fuel economy decreases with age.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Meanwhile paying for 30 years of gas adds up, I've seen this point come up a lot. The energy used to recharge batteries right now is being mostly produced using traditional means of power production, mostly fossil. So in the end we are only shifting costs, not really saving. Another important point not being discussed is that used vehicles are dirty cheap (easily under 1k) and can still run with very little engine maintenance with the only cost being fuel. With the energy crisis we are living, I'm not sure EV are going to cost so much less than ICE to operate. If you need to change tires or get into an accident and the car needs repairs, it doesn't matter if it's an EV or an ICE, You still have to pay for it and probably the EV cannot be repaired by a gas station mechanic. The same gas station worker might lose business due to EVs becoming more popular and that's not gonna be cheap economically and socially. Before it's gonna be cheaper, we need to completely overhaul the way transport economics works. I don't have the slightest idea of how long it is gonna take, but it's not gonna be tomorrow.
    - Retric 4y ago
      Environmentally a great deal of CO2 comes from to extracting crude oil, transport, refine, and distribute gasoline. Roughly 1kg of CO2 per gallon of gas is released just in the refining process while 8.9kg comes from actually burning the fuel. Next out of global electricity production 16% is hydro, 10.3% nuclear, 5.3% is wind, and solar is 2.5%. And wind and solar numbers are rapidly trending upwards. The 23% from Natural gas is also vastly cleaner both from extremely efficient turbines and because of inherent advantages to the fuel. It’s only the 36.7% that from coal where the numbers come close while still slightly favoring EV’s per mile.
      - lvass 4y ago
        >It’s only the 36.7% that from coal where the numbers come close The problem is, when you add that demand to your power grid, is that increasing the supply of hydro, nuclear, wind, or solar? In practice, the extra demand from EVs only increases the correlated amount of coal used as that is where the excess of potential electricity generation is, for now.

greenthrow 4y ago

That is not remotely true and hasn't been true for about a decade.

fooker 4y ago
What's the cheapest EV with a 350+ miles range?

Tagbert 4y ago

2023 Chevy Bolt EV with 259 mile range has a starting price of $25,600

yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
259 miles is also less than 350+ miles