4 ms·

I'll switch to Wayland as soon as Wayland works better than X in ways I care about, namely performance. I get 25-50% more FPS in games using X than Wayland. T

I'll switch to Wayland as soon as Wayland works better than X in ways I care about, namely performance. I get 25-50% more FPS in games using X than Wayland. The touted benefits of Wayland aren't manifest or relevant to me. Screen tearing? I don't get screen tearing when using kwin with compositing on my intel iGPU. I know what screen tearing looks like, I've experienced it before with other configurations, and it doesn't happen for me with this configuration. Security? My whole $HOME is readable and writeable to just about any application I run; using Wayland is like locking my windows but leaving my front door wide open. X being an abandoned project that is no longer supported? Well it's still performing better than Wayland for me. If Wayland devs really want me to switch, they'll need to either make Wayland work much better, or make X work much worse. Until then, I won't switch.

5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
"Wayland devs" absolutely don't care if you switch or not. I don't get where this entitlement is coming from.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  I feel no entitlement, I'm happy with what I'm using already. I do however perceive a vague desire from Wayland advocates / developers that I stop using what I like and get with their program. But I won't until it works better for me. If you don't care what I use, then my above comment shouldn't upset you. I'm merely describing why I continue to happily use what I use.
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  There is no entitlement. There was a question on a topic, and someone shared their opinion on this topic. It was cleanly focused on what it would take for them to adopt Wayland, and answering the question from a personal point of view. This is what generally happens on discussion boards like HN. This will happen a lot here. > "Wayland devs" absolutely don't care if you switch or not Citation please showing that "Wayland devs" do not care about why people aren't using Wayland and do not find people posting issues with their pains in adopting Wayland helpful in any way.
  - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
    I like this take: https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.html https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.ht... It shows pretty clearly what these "discussions" did to at least one maintainer of a compositor I've spent thousands of hours in front of. Thanks for burning him, I guess. When I recount difficulties with any FOSS application, I try to be very humble, always remembering the immeasurable amount of work put in by developers to give me this thing for free. Somehow you don't see a lot of this in these Wayland threads. A commenter waltzes in, leaves a classic screed ("you won't see my business unless this XYZ thing works!"), and marches out. Leaving no word of thanks for work that has already been done, not throwing a couple of bucks for a coffee. Maybe it's a cultural difference, I don't know. Seems very entitled to me.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      All of my communications with Drew in the past have been amicable, although we never discussed Wayland specifically. I don't know who burned him out but it wasn't me, so you're barking up the wrong tree.
Crysstalis 4y ago
>I get 25-50% more FPS in games using X than Wayland. This is probably just a bug. If you are using kwin compositing on X11, and not using the option that disables it for games, then it will be doing more or less the same thing as Wayland. So there is no reason it should be causing such a performance hit.
fps_doug 4y ago
> Security? My whole $HOME is readable and writeable to just about any application I run; using Wayland is like locking my windows but leaving my front door wide open. Exactly. Like, holy moly did the people working on Wayland get carried away by the mobile OS world. And second system syndrome too probably. I'm using $DISTRO because I trust them enough to not package spyware/malware in their repos. I know it's not 100% safe, there have been and will be security bugs that don't get fixed in a timely manner, or even ones that got introduced by distro-specific patches in the first place, but holy hell my OSS desktop is not a proprietary smartphone OS loaded with random closed-source apps from god knows who that tries to steal my data for profit. If I get pwned then it's certainly not through my display server. I mean, eventually, like always, the open source world will get its shit together, and Wayland will probably become usable, but we only recently kinda solved the whole screen recording issue. A few weeks ago I wanted to have a simple script, that would quickly switch between a couple display configurations. With X11 that was dead simple by using xrandr. It works with every DE/WM on this planet. You'd assume there's an equivalent tool for Wayland. But mumble mumble security, you cannot do that, so we got the same f#+ing situation as with screen recording again, every WM/compositor comes up with their own solution to something absolutely trivial. GNOME/Mutter have a dbus-API, wlroots-based ones have "wlrandr" via some protocol extension, KWIN I didn't even bother checking. But it's only 15 years since the project started right, why should something trivial as this have been settled upon yet? I even stumbled upon a discussion in an issue tracker that I cannot find just now where Wayland devs argued that you don't even want something like that. Like, go working for Apple with that mindset. Give it another 10 years, and it might be ready to serve more than the absolutely trivial average Joe use-case.
- Crysstalis 4y ago
  >And second system syndrome too probably In my opinion, Wayland has avoided this by deliberately being simpler than X11. > I'm using $DISTRO because I trust them enough to not package spyware/malware in their repos >but holy hell my OSS desktop is not a proprietary smartphone OS loaded with random closed-source apps from god knows who that tries to steal my data for profit I think it is not reasonable for you to ask them to never plan for a day when that could happen, if that is what you are suggesting anyway. >You'd assume there's an equivalent tool for Wayland Not if you were aware of the current issues with Xrandr and why it is a poor target. >But mumble mumble security, you cannot do that, so we got the same f#+ing situation as with screen recording again, every WM/compositor comes up with their own solution to something absolutely trivial. GNOME/Mutter have a dbus-API, wlroots-based ones have "wlrandr" via some protocol extension, KWIN I didn't even bother checking. But it's only 15 years since the project started right, why should something trivial as this have been settled upon yet? It is absolutely not trivial, and there are security/usability issues with it. To do this "the right way" would be more or less duplicating the entire KMS API into every implementation. Even XRandr is still missing features compared to that, so it is not an adequate solution either.

5e92cb50239222b 4y ago

"Wayland devs" absolutely don't care if you switch or not. I don't get where this entitlement is coming from.

MichaelCollins 4y ago
I feel no entitlement, I'm happy with what I'm using already. I do however perceive a vague desire from Wayland advocates / developers that I stop using what I like and get with their program. But I won't until it works better for me. If you don't care what I use, then my above comment shouldn't upset you. I'm merely describing why I continue to happily use what I use.
jasonlotito 4y ago
There is no entitlement. There was a question on a topic, and someone shared their opinion on this topic. It was cleanly focused on what it would take for them to adopt Wayland, and answering the question from a personal point of view. This is what generally happens on discussion boards like HN. This will happen a lot here. > "Wayland devs" absolutely don't care if you switch or not Citation please showing that "Wayland devs" do not care about why people aren't using Wayland and do not find people posting issues with their pains in adopting Wayland helpful in any way.
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  I like this take: https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.html https://drewdevault.com/2021/02/02/Anti-Wayland-horseshit.ht... It shows pretty clearly what these "discussions" did to at least one maintainer of a compositor I've spent thousands of hours in front of. Thanks for burning him, I guess. When I recount difficulties with any FOSS application, I try to be very humble, always remembering the immeasurable amount of work put in by developers to give me this thing for free. Somehow you don't see a lot of this in these Wayland threads. A commenter waltzes in, leaves a classic screed ("you won't see my business unless this XYZ thing works!"), and marches out. Leaving no word of thanks for work that has already been done, not throwing a couple of bucks for a coffee. Maybe it's a cultural difference, I don't know. Seems very entitled to me.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    All of my communications with Drew in the past have been amicable, although we never discussed Wayland specifically. I don't know who burned him out but it wasn't me, so you're barking up the wrong tree.

Crysstalis 4y ago

>I get 25-50% more FPS in games using X than Wayland. This is probably just a bug. If you are using kwin compositing on X11, and not using the option that disables it for games, then it will be doing more or less the same thing as Wayland. So there is no reason it should be causing such a performance hit.

fps_doug 4y ago

> Security? My whole $HOME is readable and writeable to just about any application I run; using Wayland is like locking my windows but leaving my front door wide open. Exactly. Like, holy moly did the people working on Wayland get carried away by the mobile OS world. And second system syndrome too probably. I'm using $DISTRO because I trust them enough to not package spyware/malware in their repos. I know it's not 100% safe, there have been and will be security bugs that don't get fixed in a timely manner, or even ones that got introduced by distro-specific patches in the first place, but holy hell my OSS desktop is not a proprietary smartphone OS loaded with random closed-source apps from god knows who that tries to steal my data for profit. If I get pwned then it's certainly not through my display server. I mean, eventually, like always, the open source world will get its shit together, and Wayland will probably become usable, but we only recently kinda solved the whole screen recording issue. A few weeks ago I wanted to have a simple script, that would quickly switch between a couple display configurations. With X11 that was dead simple by using xrandr. It works with every DE/WM on this planet. You'd assume there's an equivalent tool for Wayland. But mumble mumble security, you cannot do that, so we got the same f#+ing situation as with screen recording again, every WM/compositor comes up with their own solution to something absolutely trivial. GNOME/Mutter have a dbus-API, wlroots-based ones have "wlrandr" via some protocol extension, KWIN I didn't even bother checking. But it's only 15 years since the project started right, why should something trivial as this have been settled upon yet? I even stumbled upon a discussion in an issue tracker that I cannot find just now where Wayland devs argued that you don't even want something like that. Like, go working for Apple with that mindset. Give it another 10 years, and it might be ready to serve more than the absolutely trivial average Joe use-case.

Crysstalis 4y ago
>And second system syndrome too probably In my opinion, Wayland has avoided this by deliberately being simpler than X11. > I'm using $DISTRO because I trust them enough to not package spyware/malware in their repos >but holy hell my OSS desktop is not a proprietary smartphone OS loaded with random closed-source apps from god knows who that tries to steal my data for profit I think it is not reasonable for you to ask them to never plan for a day when that could happen, if that is what you are suggesting anyway. >You'd assume there's an equivalent tool for Wayland Not if you were aware of the current issues with Xrandr and why it is a poor target. >But mumble mumble security, you cannot do that, so we got the same f#+ing situation as with screen recording again, every WM/compositor comes up with their own solution to something absolutely trivial. GNOME/Mutter have a dbus-API, wlroots-based ones have "wlrandr" via some protocol extension, KWIN I didn't even bother checking. But it's only 15 years since the project started right, why should something trivial as this have been settled upon yet? It is absolutely not trivial, and there are security/usability issues with it. To do this "the right way" would be more or less duplicating the entire KMS API into every implementation. Even XRandr is still missing features compared to that, so it is not an adequate solution either.