4 ms·

If you build web pages without the whole JS frameworks and Node circus, they are pretty durable. Those helpers were invented because people started to build emp

If you build web pages without the whole JS frameworks and Node circus, they are pretty durable. Those helpers were invented because people started to build empires (complex applications) on sand (the web), so they are pretty useful for larger projects, but simple websites can still be easily built with plain HTML/CSS/JS.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
yeah but there is no value, personally in building projects like that anymore, you can not use them in your portfolio or to progress your career - i was going to build a personal site, but realised it would probably act as more of a hindrance to me, because potential clients/employers would see that it was not using latest new js fad. if it was up to me i would never touch those things, but that's what the market has become. i even resisted learning typescript for so many years, because i loathe the idea of learning a language that needs to be converted to have correct syntax. same with jsx, i use it, but it feels horrible.
- superkuh 4y ago
  If the only reason you build websites is to get paid then you're part of the problem. Separate your personal and professional lives. Or do you not enjoy building on the web for fun?
  - Ntrails 4y ago
    > If the only reason you build websites is to get paid then you're part of the problem. This is absurd. I write code for a living, I enjoy solving problems and that is part of my job. I do not write code in my free time. I play video games, go hiking or go to the beach and maybe read a book with dragons in. That doesn't make me a problem. My job is not my life. Honestly it shouldn't be, it is not healthy imo
    - deadbeeves 4y ago
      You can code in your free time without your job being your life, as you put it. For example, your hobby project might have nothing to do with your day job and just be something you want to make or that gives you pleasure to tinker with. If you don't really enjoy doing it of if there are other things you'd rather do then you don't have to do it, obviously, but this idea that you can either never code outside work hours or have an unhealthy relationship with your job is a false dichotomy.
    - andai 4y ago
      You're competing against people who do. "Should" it be that way? It's not the employer's fault some prefer to spend their free time programming too ;)
  - 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
    i've been doing this since 2007 as a full-time career. I think my interest peaked around the ajax/jquery era and has been in steady decline ever since. i'm just bitter about becoming a web dinosaur.
- brailsafe 4y ago
  You think potential clients are digging in to the source code of your hypothetical personal website? You sound like you've identified a group of technologies as a personal enemy, and already don't use or want to use them. The most value you can deliver to a potential client when they visit your website, is in communicating concisely what you have and are capable of buiding for other people like them, not what you're capable of building for yourself as a vanity project
- madeofpalk 4y ago
  Interviewed and hired many developers. Not once was the tech stack of their personal website, if they had one, ever brought up or considered.
  - 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
    i just will assume most hiring gatekeepers will make superficial judgements about the appearance of your portfolio work and many developers will do the same about your code. not everyone is willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      In most companies I worked for, there is no portfolio to show unless you want to violate the NDAs.
    - ori_b 4y ago
      I poke around code that candidates have written. Simplicity is a virtue.
- pjmlp 4y ago
  When doing consulting, many costumers only care they get a Website, not how it works underneath.
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  FOMO is a bad career advisor. It puts you in direct competition with all the other people anxiously doing only what they think everyone wants them to do. Sort of hard to distinguish yourself if you are doing exactly the same super trendy things everyone else is doing.
- ransom1538 4y ago
  I would go so far as to say javascript hurts the web. If hacker news was written like facebook the user numbers wouldn't be the same. Endless transitions, spas, waiting for loading, glitches, popups with fades, all that is a waste of time - the user just wants to read text. I want clean loading, just simple clean html, fast rendering, nothing processed after i get the html rendered. What would be rad is a facebook.clean where you can just HN style rendering, clean tables, the browser keeps track of what you clicked, super fast interactions etc.
- jnovek 4y ago
  I’d say the opposite in my experience when I’ve been a hiring manager. I prefer candidates who show that they understand their fundamentals, their primary domain and can show that they grow and adapt easily. The current hot technology is ephemeral and can be learned on the job by a competent engineer. That said, my background is startups so I don’t know what larger companies expect.
  - enumjorge 4y ago
    My background is in larger companies. No one is going to care what framework your personal site is built on. If anything it might not even come up because there’s such an emphasis on Leetcode questions, but I seriously doubt it would hurt your chances.
- systems_glitch 4y ago
  It's OK to do a thing because you wish to, and not because it might advance your career one day.
- agentwiggles 4y ago
  People building for the fun of it with simple tools is what made the old school web that so many HN readers are nostalgic for. These days it feels like everyone is constantly looking for an angle, feeling like nothing is worth doing if it can't be monetized and turned into content. Fuck's sake, people can't even go _fishing_ without strapping up with a GoPro and trying to sell their favorite tackle. Be punk rock. Go do something for the joy of it. Go learn a language that no one will ever pay you to write. You have a day job to get paid. Why worry about it for what you do for fun?
  - 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
    > Be punk rock. Go do something for the joy of it. Go learn a language that no one will ever pay you to write. You have a day job to get paid. Why worry about it for what you do for fun? you're right, i'm trying to get into that mindset. Being contrary for no other reason than absurdity.
- nudpiedo 4y ago
  Amazon and Google frontends work without Js. The same can be applied to other empires.
- rvense 4y ago
  I strongly disagree that it has no value. If I interviewed a developer and they showed me an impressive website/application that was built without a framework, I would probably be more impressed than if they showed me one that was built with one. An understanding of the basic building blocks of the platform is always helpful, just like I would consider knowledge of lower-level programming and different programming paradigms a huge plus, compared to someone who's only ever done web. I would, of course, also be sure to ask them about why starting from Adam & Eve is only rarely appropriate in a business context, how it's important to write code that others can pick up and understand. I expect anyone but the most junior candidate to understand that no tech stack is perfect, and that it's all about trade-offs, and that the tech is a means to an end. We don't hire people to love a tech stack (most of them are pretty unlovable, to be frank), we hire them to, as quickly as possible, get good software in front of paying users. If you come in and demonstrate that you can take a thorough understanding of HTML, Javascript and CSS up to something resembling a dynamic, modern, responsive web application, and if we can have an intelligent discussion about what the frameworks and infrastructure bring to the table, you're obviously miles ahead of someone whose knowledge stops at copy-pasting React snippets and googling the WebPack error.

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago

yeah but there is no value, personally in building projects like that anymore, you can not use them in your portfolio or to progress your career - i was going to build a personal site, but realised it would probably act as more of a hindrance to me, because potential clients/employers would see that it was not using latest new js fad. if it was up to me i would never touch those things, but that's what the market has become. i even resisted learning typescript for so many years, because i loathe the idea of learning a language that needs to be converted to have correct syntax. same with jsx, i use it, but it feels horrible.

superkuh 4y ago
If the only reason you build websites is to get paid then you're part of the problem. Separate your personal and professional lives. Or do you not enjoy building on the web for fun?
- Ntrails 4y ago
  > If the only reason you build websites is to get paid then you're part of the problem. This is absurd. I write code for a living, I enjoy solving problems and that is part of my job. I do not write code in my free time. I play video games, go hiking or go to the beach and maybe read a book with dragons in. That doesn't make me a problem. My job is not my life. Honestly it shouldn't be, it is not healthy imo
  - deadbeeves 4y ago
    You can code in your free time without your job being your life, as you put it. For example, your hobby project might have nothing to do with your day job and just be something you want to make or that gives you pleasure to tinker with. If you don't really enjoy doing it of if there are other things you'd rather do then you don't have to do it, obviously, but this idea that you can either never code outside work hours or have an unhealthy relationship with your job is a false dichotomy.
  - andai 4y ago
    You're competing against people who do. "Should" it be that way? It's not the employer's fault some prefer to spend their free time programming too ;)
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  i've been doing this since 2007 as a full-time career. I think my interest peaked around the ajax/jquery era and has been in steady decline ever since. i'm just bitter about becoming a web dinosaur.
brailsafe 4y ago
You think potential clients are digging in to the source code of your hypothetical personal website? You sound like you've identified a group of technologies as a personal enemy, and already don't use or want to use them. The most value you can deliver to a potential client when they visit your website, is in communicating concisely what you have and are capable of buiding for other people like them, not what you're capable of building for yourself as a vanity project
madeofpalk 4y ago
Interviewed and hired many developers. Not once was the tech stack of their personal website, if they had one, ever brought up or considered.
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  i just will assume most hiring gatekeepers will make superficial judgements about the appearance of your portfolio work and many developers will do the same about your code. not everyone is willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    In most companies I worked for, there is no portfolio to show unless you want to violate the NDAs.
  - ori_b 4y ago
    I poke around code that candidates have written. Simplicity is a virtue.
pjmlp 4y ago
When doing consulting, many costumers only care they get a Website, not how it works underneath.
marginalia_nu 4y ago
FOMO is a bad career advisor. It puts you in direct competition with all the other people anxiously doing only what they think everyone wants them to do. Sort of hard to distinguish yourself if you are doing exactly the same super trendy things everyone else is doing.
ransom1538 4y ago
I would go so far as to say javascript hurts the web. If hacker news was written like facebook the user numbers wouldn't be the same. Endless transitions, spas, waiting for loading, glitches, popups with fades, all that is a waste of time - the user just wants to read text. I want clean loading, just simple clean html, fast rendering, nothing processed after i get the html rendered. What would be rad is a facebook.clean where you can just HN style rendering, clean tables, the browser keeps track of what you clicked, super fast interactions etc.
jnovek 4y ago
I’d say the opposite in my experience when I’ve been a hiring manager. I prefer candidates who show that they understand their fundamentals, their primary domain and can show that they grow and adapt easily. The current hot technology is ephemeral and can be learned on the job by a competent engineer. That said, my background is startups so I don’t know what larger companies expect.
- enumjorge 4y ago
  My background is in larger companies. No one is going to care what framework your personal site is built on. If anything it might not even come up because there’s such an emphasis on Leetcode questions, but I seriously doubt it would hurt your chances.
systems_glitch 4y ago
It's OK to do a thing because you wish to, and not because it might advance your career one day.
agentwiggles 4y ago
People building for the fun of it with simple tools is what made the old school web that so many HN readers are nostalgic for. These days it feels like everyone is constantly looking for an angle, feeling like nothing is worth doing if it can't be monetized and turned into content. Fuck's sake, people can't even go _fishing_ without strapping up with a GoPro and trying to sell their favorite tackle. Be punk rock. Go do something for the joy of it. Go learn a language that no one will ever pay you to write. You have a day job to get paid. Why worry about it for what you do for fun?
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  > Be punk rock. Go do something for the joy of it. Go learn a language that no one will ever pay you to write. You have a day job to get paid. Why worry about it for what you do for fun? you're right, i'm trying to get into that mindset. Being contrary for no other reason than absurdity.
nudpiedo 4y ago
Amazon and Google frontends work without Js. The same can be applied to other empires.
rvense 4y ago
I strongly disagree that it has no value. If I interviewed a developer and they showed me an impressive website/application that was built without a framework, I would probably be more impressed than if they showed me one that was built with one. An understanding of the basic building blocks of the platform is always helpful, just like I would consider knowledge of lower-level programming and different programming paradigms a huge plus, compared to someone who's only ever done web. I would, of course, also be sure to ask them about why starting from Adam & Eve is only rarely appropriate in a business context, how it's important to write code that others can pick up and understand. I expect anyone but the most junior candidate to understand that no tech stack is perfect, and that it's all about trade-offs, and that the tech is a means to an end. We don't hire people to love a tech stack (most of them are pretty unlovable, to be frank), we hire them to, as quickly as possible, get good software in front of paying users. If you come in and demonstrate that you can take a thorough understanding of HTML, Javascript and CSS up to something resembling a dynamic, modern, responsive web application, and if we can have an intelligent discussion about what the frameworks and infrastructure bring to the table, you're obviously miles ahead of someone whose knowledge stops at copy-pasting React snippets and googling the WebPack error.