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>Are you making the argument that we should be striving for a decrease in consumption? Because I can see no compelling argument Yes. The compelling argument is

>Are you making the argument that we should be striving for a decrease in consumption? Because I can see no compelling argument Yes. The compelling argument is that we're late on the clock when it comes to even fulfilling the modest measures we've set ourselves and that if we don't act faster we're going to destroy our ecology for both future generations and countless of other species on this planet. That's not compelling or clear enough? You want to sit in 50°C degree summer heat and ration your food because crops aren't sustainable rather than ration some energy now? Because you don't get to 'sign up' for anything, you'll have to pick one.

internet_user 4y ago
Could you argue how nuclear energy will cause 50 degree summers? Because I cannot.
- discreteevent 4y ago
  This is a race against time. We need to put out the fire right now with whatever we have to prevent damage to this building and spread to other buildings. This might buy us some time to work on better fire prevention in future.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Using renewable energy is putting out the fire. There’s no reason to advocate for reduced consumption of it. It doesn’t add to the fire.
gwicks56 4y ago
If the energy is clean, what difference does it make how much we use? Should a break through happen in fusion tonight, and clean limitless green energy became available cheaply, would you still argue we should use less? The fact remains that what people say they care about, and what they are prepared to sacrifice for, are two totally separate things. What you are suggesting is essentially an enforced recession ( drop in consumption and quality of life). Politicians are never rewarded for having a recession on their watch. It's just never going to fly. It's as realistic as we can end war if everyone would just be nicer to one another.
- h0l0cube 4y ago
  > If the energy is clean, what difference does it make how much we use? I think OP argues that if that power isn't going into the grid, it does make a difference, specifically to how much dirty energy is used by everybody else: > Every solar panel put to use for something that isn't turning an old power plant off is slowing the energy transition.
- nathanaldensr 4y ago
  Classify their feelings as deep, unassuageable guilt and it all begins to make sense. In their minds, we're all sinners, and there is no penance except to suffer.
j245 4y ago
You’ve missed the point. Energy use by itself does not lead to global warming. Energy sourced by burning fossil fuels does. Deprecating harmful sources of energy is what we care about, not total consumption. There is no compelling argument against increasing energy consumption if it’s from clean sources.
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  +1 If anything increasing energy production is the solution to climate change. Abundant clean energy literally enables terraforming. How we terraform will be important, but at a minimum we can terraform the climate into stagnation.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  As a lover of science fiction and an optimist I agree with your position, and sound logic. The measure of a civilisation is correlated well with how much energy it can command. Inter-planetary travel will need another factor of growth in our capacity, and it will come from clean sources like fusion. But that's living in the future. We're 100 years premature if we think that way. We must deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be. The world as it is, is bleak. We fucked up. We took a wrong turning down 50 years of late capitalism fuelled on unsustainable and toxic resources. There's really no alternative in the immediate plan than reducing consumption. My way of coping is to embrace that challenge as a new vision of a positive future. Taking pride in using less is it's own journey and I will leave colonising Mars to the great-grandchildren.
  - gwicks56 4y ago
    With enough energy we can pull CO2 out of the air, and turn into a myriad of useful things[1], not just making $$ off the things produced, but also lowering CO2 concentrations. The biggest cost input is energy itself. We need MORE energy, not less, to solve the problems we have created. Technology got us into this mess, and only new better technology can get us out of it, asking people to live worse lives just seems to me to be a political non starter. 1 (one example) :https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/07/22/were-going-to-need-a-lot-of-solar-panels/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/07/22/were-going-to-...

internet_user 4y ago

Could you argue how nuclear energy will cause 50 degree summers? Because I cannot.

discreteevent 4y ago
This is a race against time. We need to put out the fire right now with whatever we have to prevent damage to this building and spread to other buildings. This might buy us some time to work on better fire prevention in future.
- bergenty 4y ago
  Using renewable energy is putting out the fire. There’s no reason to advocate for reduced consumption of it. It doesn’t add to the fire.

gwicks56 4y ago

If the energy is clean, what difference does it make how much we use? Should a break through happen in fusion tonight, and clean limitless green energy became available cheaply, would you still argue we should use less? The fact remains that what people say they care about, and what they are prepared to sacrifice for, are two totally separate things. What you are suggesting is essentially an enforced recession ( drop in consumption and quality of life). Politicians are never rewarded for having a recession on their watch. It's just never going to fly. It's as realistic as we can end war if everyone would just be nicer to one another.

h0l0cube 4y ago
> If the energy is clean, what difference does it make how much we use? I think OP argues that if that power isn't going into the grid, it does make a difference, specifically to how much dirty energy is used by everybody else: > Every solar panel put to use for something that isn't turning an old power plant off is slowing the energy transition.
nathanaldensr 4y ago
Classify their feelings as deep, unassuageable guilt and it all begins to make sense. In their minds, we're all sinners, and there is no penance except to suffer.

j245 4y ago

You’ve missed the point. Energy use by itself does not lead to global warming. Energy sourced by burning fossil fuels does. Deprecating harmful sources of energy is what we care about, not total consumption. There is no compelling argument against increasing energy consumption if it’s from clean sources.

yazaddaruvala 4y ago
+1 If anything increasing energy production is the solution to climate change. Abundant clean energy literally enables terraforming. How we terraform will be important, but at a minimum we can terraform the climate into stagnation.
nonrandomstring 4y ago
As a lover of science fiction and an optimist I agree with your position, and sound logic. The measure of a civilisation is correlated well with how much energy it can command. Inter-planetary travel will need another factor of growth in our capacity, and it will come from clean sources like fusion. But that's living in the future. We're 100 years premature if we think that way. We must deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be. The world as it is, is bleak. We fucked up. We took a wrong turning down 50 years of late capitalism fuelled on unsustainable and toxic resources. There's really no alternative in the immediate plan than reducing consumption. My way of coping is to embrace that challenge as a new vision of a positive future. Taking pride in using less is it's own journey and I will leave colonising Mars to the great-grandchildren.
- gwicks56 4y ago
  With enough energy we can pull CO2 out of the air, and turn into a myriad of useful things[1], not just making $$ off the things produced, but also lowering CO2 concentrations. The biggest cost input is energy itself. We need MORE energy, not less, to solve the problems we have created. Technology got us into this mess, and only new better technology can get us out of it, asking people to live worse lives just seems to me to be a political non starter. 1 (one example) :https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/07/22/were-going-to-need-a-lot-of-solar-panels/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2022/07/22/were-going-to-...