7 ms·

>“They knew it was a crime before they did it, and they did it anyway. So what we have to help them do is examine why.” This kind of naivete is plaguing so man

by daenz 4y ago

>“They knew it was a crime before they did it, and they did it anyway. So what we have to help them do is examine why.” This kind of naivete is plaguing so many leaders. If only criminals could examine themselves and introspect their actions, then they would understand! It's like people forget that we are still essentially animals, and when the reward of opportunity outweighs the risk of punishment, there is slim chance that the moral mind will prevail. Even slimmer if the person in question does not have a foundation of morality guiding them. Restore morality and revamp the idea of punishment to actually be a deterrent in the 21st century and these things will go away. Unfortunately we are inundated with weakness to a degree that we consider morality as undefinable and punishment a faux pas. "Punish a criminal? How unacceptable. Who are you to say what is right and wrong?" It seems we'd rather society fray apart into nothing than re-establish any kind of order.

_8j50 4y ago
It is a fundamental question of the nature of man. People are fundamentally evil and need to be thought to do good. Religions including Christianity have a way to address that but what is a secular society's way to address this? If you disagree with this please let me know why. Most people are raised to believe they are fundamentally good which causes a lot of harm and suffering. Challenging that preconception and learning to do good is the best way to defeat evil and let justice and equality prevail for all in my opinion.
- daenz 4y ago
  Secular society has been so busy deconstructing the concept of God and religion, on the premise that it's useless if it's not provably true, to come up with an adequate replacement for the positive things God and religion provided. They seem either completely disinterested or completely incapable of the task.
- polotics 4y ago
  What evidence do you have for "People are fundamentally evil". Personally I have found it useful to get new acquaintances to tell me their opinions on this one. A lot of the rest of their behaviour can then be inferred.
  - _8j50 4y ago
    Like all of history and the cruelties of modern society in any country. Even toddlers have been shown to be selfish,racist and cruel towards other toddlers before they can even speak a word. If you can't find relevant research I would be glad to oblige tomorrow.
mavelikara 4y ago
> Restore morality and revamp the idea of punishment to actually be a deterrent in the 21st century and these things will go away. This would be much more effective if we start with crimes of educated, wealthier segments of the population. Starting the "Operation Restore Morality" with the poorest sections of the public is where things come off as hollow.
- jl6 4y ago
  Elite corruption seems like an entirely separate problem to street crime. I don't see why we wouldn't want to solve both, nor why there should be any "you first" here.
  - hansword 4y ago
    you don't see why? really? Please ask one of your poorer friends if they see why.
    - jl6 4y ago
      Literally everybody I know would want to see both street crime and elite corruption addressed. Are you advocating for addressing one of them but not the other?
      - hansword 4y ago
        Did you ask one of your poorer friends before putting words into other peoples mouth?
        jl6 4y ago
        I know my friends and family very well, so… yes? Certainly well enough to know that they do not subscribe to the extreme fringe idea that we need to solve elite crime before we can prosecute shoplifters. By the way, the branch of my family that would count as poor are uniformly much more conservative than I am. This type of article may help you understand: https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-class-people-vote-conservative https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-...
yunohn 4y ago
> "Punish a criminal? How unacceptable. Who are you to say what is right and wrong?" It seems we'd rather society fray apart into nothing than re-establish any kind of order We live in a society where the rich and elites - the ones running our governments and corporations, are all greedily exploiting and cheating the entire populace. They’re all getting away with it too, with ever increasing wealth gaps and wages that don’t match inflation. So, when people display such ire for low level petty theft by people with nothing in their lives, and claim they’re the ones “fraying apart society” - I find it hard to take seriously.
- daenz 4y ago
  >people with nothing in their lives...[are]...the ones “fraying apart society” You misread. The ones who are letting society come apart are all of us who let ourselves be apathetic enough to be deceived by people who think a total lack of morality is the way to run society. To the rest of your response, my post could be generalized to any social level. No need to whatabout wage gaps and inflation. Everything I said applies there too: lack of morality and lack of deterring punishment.
  - yunohn 4y ago
    If you truly believe that lack of morality is the issue, then we should immediately start prosecuting rich/elite corruption. It harms everyone, it eats away at societal wealth and trust, and leads further to facism.
    - daenz 4y ago
      Yes, we should be punishing rich/elite corruption. Is this a trick question?
      - yunohn 4y ago
        Yours is a trick answer, because we aren’t - at least not on the same scale nor with the same public outcry.
- 4y ago
FrenchDevRemote 4y ago
"Restore morality and revamp the idea of punishment to actually be a deterrent in the 21st century and these things will go away." If's funny to say that after admitting that we're animals driven by instinct. Making morality and punishment a priority won't change a thing when people have to choose between making rent/eating lunch/buying meds or committing crimes. The easiest way to prevent criminality, is feeding people, housing, healthcare, and education on a longer timeline. Also people tend to underestimate punishment and overestimate rewards, especially desperate people, people everywhere are routinely risking years of jail for a hundred dollars.
- bm3719 4y ago
  Animals, or at least most mammals and birds, can be trained. Human animals that haven't been trained with a morality system or something effectively similar have only a relatively straight-forward cost/benefit analysis as their decision calculus. Most humans have a morality system to the extent that they'd rather starve to death than engage in cannibalism, for example. It requires more effort, but they can also be socialized to endure reduced access to drugs in exchange for not stealing.

by daenz 4y ago

_8j50 4y ago

It is a fundamental question of the nature of man. People are fundamentally evil and need to be thought to do good. Religions including Christianity have a way to address that but what is a secular society's way to address this? If you disagree with this please let me know why. Most people are raised to believe they are fundamentally good which causes a lot of harm and suffering. Challenging that preconception and learning to do good is the best way to defeat evil and let justice and equality prevail for all in my opinion.

daenz 4y ago
Secular society has been so busy deconstructing the concept of God and religion, on the premise that it's useless if it's not provably true, to come up with an adequate replacement for the positive things God and religion provided. They seem either completely disinterested or completely incapable of the task.
polotics 4y ago
What evidence do you have for "People are fundamentally evil". Personally I have found it useful to get new acquaintances to tell me their opinions on this one. A lot of the rest of their behaviour can then be inferred.
- _8j50 4y ago
  Like all of history and the cruelties of modern society in any country. Even toddlers have been shown to be selfish,racist and cruel towards other toddlers before they can even speak a word. If you can't find relevant research I would be glad to oblige tomorrow.

mavelikara 4y ago

> Restore morality and revamp the idea of punishment to actually be a deterrent in the 21st century and these things will go away. This would be much more effective if we start with crimes of educated, wealthier segments of the population. Starting the "Operation Restore Morality" with the poorest sections of the public is where things come off as hollow.

jl6 4y ago
Elite corruption seems like an entirely separate problem to street crime. I don't see why we wouldn't want to solve both, nor why there should be any "you first" here.
- hansword 4y ago
  you don't see why? really? Please ask one of your poorer friends if they see why.
  - jl6 4y ago
    Literally everybody I know would want to see both street crime and elite corruption addressed. Are you advocating for addressing one of them but not the other?
    - hansword 4y ago
      Did you ask one of your poorer friends before putting words into other peoples mouth?
      - jl6 4y ago
        I know my friends and family very well, so… yes? Certainly well enough to know that they do not subscribe to the extreme fringe idea that we need to solve elite crime before we can prosecute shoplifters. By the way, the branch of my family that would count as poor are uniformly much more conservative than I am. This type of article may help you understand: https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-class-people-vote-conservative https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-...

yunohn 4y ago

> "Punish a criminal? How unacceptable. Who are you to say what is right and wrong?" It seems we'd rather society fray apart into nothing than re-establish any kind of order We live in a society where the rich and elites - the ones running our governments and corporations, are all greedily exploiting and cheating the entire populace. They’re all getting away with it too, with ever increasing wealth gaps and wages that don’t match inflation. So, when people display such ire for low level petty theft by people with nothing in their lives, and claim they’re the ones “fraying apart society” - I find it hard to take seriously.

daenz 4y ago
>people with nothing in their lives...[are]...the ones “fraying apart society” You misread. The ones who are letting society come apart are all of us who let ourselves be apathetic enough to be deceived by people who think a total lack of morality is the way to run society. To the rest of your response, my post could be generalized to any social level. No need to whatabout wage gaps and inflation. Everything I said applies there too: lack of morality and lack of deterring punishment.
- yunohn 4y ago
  If you truly believe that lack of morality is the issue, then we should immediately start prosecuting rich/elite corruption. It harms everyone, it eats away at societal wealth and trust, and leads further to facism.
  - daenz 4y ago
    Yes, we should be punishing rich/elite corruption. Is this a trick question?
    - yunohn 4y ago
      Yours is a trick answer, because we aren’t - at least not on the same scale nor with the same public outcry.
4y ago

FrenchDevRemote 4y ago

"Restore morality and revamp the idea of punishment to actually be a deterrent in the 21st century and these things will go away." If's funny to say that after admitting that we're animals driven by instinct. Making morality and punishment a priority won't change a thing when people have to choose between making rent/eating lunch/buying meds or committing crimes. The easiest way to prevent criminality, is feeding people, housing, healthcare, and education on a longer timeline. Also people tend to underestimate punishment and overestimate rewards, especially desperate people, people everywhere are routinely risking years of jail for a hundred dollars.

bm3719 4y ago
Animals, or at least most mammals and birds, can be trained. Human animals that haven't been trained with a morality system or something effectively similar have only a relatively straight-forward cost/benefit analysis as their decision calculus. Most humans have a morality system to the extent that they'd rather starve to death than engage in cannibalism, for example. It requires more effort, but they can also be socialized to endure reduced access to drugs in exchange for not stealing.