20 ms·

It's always interesting to me how little credit is given to GPS in Uber's story. The existence of space-based, free and ubiquitous semi-precise navigation was a

It's always interesting to me how little credit is given to GPS in Uber's story. The existence of space-based, free and ubiquitous semi-precise navigation was an enormous subsidy.

thesephist 4y ago
That's interesting! I think GPS falls in the category of "works so reliably that I don't perceive it as technology" for me. But yes, GPS an underrated piece of infrastructure, even more impressive as it's globally available (edit: as in, US tech infra made available beyond US).
- lattalayta 4y ago
  If you want to appreciate GPS, check out this article and explanation of how it works. It's been posted to this website a few times now: https://ciechanow.ski/gps/ https://ciechanow.ski/gps/
  - fetzu 4y ago
    What a fantastic deep dive ! Thanks for (re-)posting this, never had stumbled upon it here before.
- zrail 4y ago
  Atomic clocks! In space! That's the epitome of modern technology for me.
tmp_anon_22 4y ago
> how little credit is given to GPS in Uber's story Uber would not exist without GPS. I wonder how many other of the unicorns: * Twitter without Rails * Facebook without PHP (I think this is fair but maybe not) * Reddit without Python * Tesla and Solar City without huge government subsidies Crazy to think how many Lake Tahoe vacation homes were transferred thanks to these projects.
- axblount 4y ago
  Maybe this is apocryphal, but I think I remember hearing that Reddit was originally written in some kind of lisp. Not to say it doesn't owe its success to python.
  - Phrodo_00 4y ago
    Very early versions, but they were already using python before you could create your own subreddits, for example (which is around the time when it started becoming more mainstream)
    - KMnO4 4y ago
      IIRC, they were able to fully rewrite it in Python in a weekend. I guess that shows the (small) scale of what it was at that point.
      - foobarian 4y ago
        Why did they need to rewrite it in Python? Isn't lisp more powerful, meaning it would have been easier to create and experiment with more features?
        seba_dos1 4y ago
        I guess they realized that they would like to start hiring.
- cosmotic 4y ago
  There are a lot of alternative programming languages that those companies could have used. There's no GPS alternative for Uber.
  - aunderscored 4y ago
    GLONASS, But that's splitting hairs
abathur 4y ago
I listened to a podcast this week (https://why-is-this-happening-with-chris-hayes.simplecast.com/episodes/the-g-word-with-adam-conover-XBCivh1P https://why-is-this-happening-with-chris-hayes.simplecast.co...) where GPS featured prominently. It's about an upcoming ~Netflix show (called The G Word), so I assume there'll be a whole episode on it?
- Gunnerhead 4y ago
  Seems like the show is already out? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_G_Word https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_G_Word
jayd16 4y ago
I wonder if Uber is feasible with wifi and cell tower location routing alone and if not how close you could actually get.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  I think it should be feasible with combination of odometer, mapping and wifi/cell signal database. The traditional metering happens through the odometer only and the mapping is only needed for orientation and optimisation(i.e. which car should be redirected to the user).
- dylan604 4y ago
  at the end of the day, it's just a stationary location with a permanent address. GPS just allows for turn-by-turn navigation so any body can find that location without being intimately familiar with an area. so, yeah, it's nice that the rider can see the route the driver is taking to feel like they are not being "taken for a ride", but I've been in rides where the drive did not take the same route my app was showing. however, is this the only thing that makes moder ride share apps a thing?
  - throwaway14356 4y ago
    one use to stick up the thumb and get a ride. detours to be negotiated
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Not once you get outside cities. I can drop a cell call by walking across my living room.
pj_mukh 4y ago
I want something that doesn’t operate on scarcity (like the corporation), but can work at the velocity of a corporation. Things like GPS and the internet would’ve been deployed much faster by a private corporation but then they would be dumb monopolies as opposed to the public good they are now. Also we need a space to work on big dumb ideas and toys[1] and neither Unix, Uber or GPS fit in that category. What is that sweet spot? [1] https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3U-why-build-toys https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3U-why-build-toys
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  I think the answer is corporations — but with a different culture. Social purpose corporation with crowdfunding and transparency seems like it would accomplish much of what you want.
  - petre 4y ago
    Aren't governments exactly that? Except for the transparency part. Once the 1% hold the power, it all goes to waste.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      No — governments coerce you to participate, rather than being a voluntary association.
- cauthon 4y ago
  > Things like GPS and the internet would’ve been deployed much faster by a private corporation but then they would be dumb monopolies as opposed to the public good they are now. 1) at least in the USA, access to the internet is not a public good, it is provided by an oligopoly (and in many circumstances a functional monopoly, where service at a given address is only available from a single ISP) 2) why do you believe that either GPS or the internet would have been deployed faster by a private corporation?
  - pj_mukh 4y ago
systemvoltage 4y ago
Uber wouldn't exist without Government™ built roads as well. It is an expectation that we get good services based the taxes we pay.
LVB 4y ago
Another element of the GPS story is the profound impact of the US flipping a veritable switch and turning off Selective Availability in 2000 (https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/ https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/), taking accuracy from perhaps 50m to a couple of meters.
kortilla 4y ago
That’s not a subsidy. A use of a non-rivalrous good that would exist with or without Uber is not a subsidy. That’s like saying the English language and calculus are a subsidy. They are definitely shoulders we all stand on, but not a subsidy.

It's always interesting to me how little credit is given to GPS in Uber's story. The existence of space-based, free and ubiquitous semi-precise navigation was an enormous subsidy.

thesephist 4y ago

That's interesting! I think GPS falls in the category of "works so reliably that I don't perceive it as technology" for me. But yes, GPS an underrated piece of infrastructure, even more impressive as it's globally available (edit: as in, US tech infra made available beyond US).

lattalayta 4y ago
If you want to appreciate GPS, check out this article and explanation of how it works. It's been posted to this website a few times now: https://ciechanow.ski/gps/ https://ciechanow.ski/gps/
- fetzu 4y ago
  What a fantastic deep dive ! Thanks for (re-)posting this, never had stumbled upon it here before.
zrail 4y ago
Atomic clocks! In space! That's the epitome of modern technology for me.

tmp_anon_22 4y ago

> how little credit is given to GPS in Uber's story Uber would not exist without GPS. I wonder how many other of the unicorns: * Twitter without Rails * Facebook without PHP (I think this is fair but maybe not) * Reddit without Python * Tesla and Solar City without huge government subsidies Crazy to think how many Lake Tahoe vacation homes were transferred thanks to these projects.

axblount 4y ago
Maybe this is apocryphal, but I think I remember hearing that Reddit was originally written in some kind of lisp. Not to say it doesn't owe its success to python.
- Phrodo_00 4y ago
  Very early versions, but they were already using python before you could create your own subreddits, for example (which is around the time when it started becoming more mainstream)
  - KMnO4 4y ago
    IIRC, they were able to fully rewrite it in Python in a weekend. I guess that shows the (small) scale of what it was at that point.
    - foobarian 4y ago
      Why did they need to rewrite it in Python? Isn't lisp more powerful, meaning it would have been easier to create and experiment with more features?
      - seba_dos1 4y ago
        I guess they realized that they would like to start hiring.
cosmotic 4y ago
There are a lot of alternative programming languages that those companies could have used. There's no GPS alternative for Uber.
- aunderscored 4y ago
  GLONASS, But that's splitting hairs

abathur 4y ago

I listened to a podcast this week (https://why-is-this-happening-with-chris-hayes.simplecast.com/episodes/the-g-word-with-adam-conover-XBCivh1P https://why-is-this-happening-with-chris-hayes.simplecast.co...) where GPS featured prominently. It's about an upcoming ~Netflix show (called The G Word), so I assume there'll be a whole episode on it?

Gunnerhead 4y ago
Seems like the show is already out? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_G_Word https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_G_Word

jayd16 4y ago

I wonder if Uber is feasible with wifi and cell tower location routing alone and if not how close you could actually get.

mrtksn 4y ago
I think it should be feasible with combination of odometer, mapping and wifi/cell signal database. The traditional metering happens through the odometer only and the mapping is only needed for orientation and optimisation(i.e. which car should be redirected to the user).
dylan604 4y ago
at the end of the day, it's just a stationary location with a permanent address. GPS just allows for turn-by-turn navigation so any body can find that location without being intimately familiar with an area. so, yeah, it's nice that the rider can see the route the driver is taking to feel like they are not being "taken for a ride", but I've been in rides where the drive did not take the same route my app was showing. however, is this the only thing that makes moder ride share apps a thing?
- throwaway14356 4y ago
  one use to stick up the thumb and get a ride. detours to be negotiated
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
Not once you get outside cities. I can drop a cell call by walking across my living room.

pj_mukh 4y ago

I want something that doesn’t operate on scarcity (like the corporation), but can work at the velocity of a corporation. Things like GPS and the internet would’ve been deployed much faster by a private corporation but then they would be dumb monopolies as opposed to the public good they are now. Also we need a space to work on big dumb ideas and toys[1] and neither Unix, Uber or GPS fit in that category. What is that sweet spot? [1] https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3U-why-build-toys https://www.ycombinator.com/library/3U-why-build-toys

zmgsabst 4y ago
I think the answer is corporations — but with a different culture. Social purpose corporation with crowdfunding and transparency seems like it would accomplish much of what you want.
- petre 4y ago
  Aren't governments exactly that? Except for the transparency part. Once the 1% hold the power, it all goes to waste.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    No — governments coerce you to participate, rather than being a voluntary association.
cauthon 4y ago
> Things like GPS and the internet would’ve been deployed much faster by a private corporation but then they would be dumb monopolies as opposed to the public good they are now. 1) at least in the USA, access to the internet is not a public good, it is provided by an oligopoly (and in many circumstances a functional monopoly, where service at a given address is only available from a single ISP) 2) why do you believe that either GPS or the internet would have been deployed faster by a private corporation?
- pj_mukh 4y ago

systemvoltage 4y ago

Uber wouldn't exist without Government™ built roads as well. It is an expectation that we get good services based the taxes we pay.

LVB 4y ago

Another element of the GPS story is the profound impact of the US flipping a veritable switch and turning off Selective Availability in 2000 (https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/ https://www.gps.gov/systems/gps/modernization/sa/), taking accuracy from perhaps 50m to a couple of meters.

kortilla 4y ago

That’s not a subsidy. A use of a non-rivalrous good that would exist with or without Uber is not a subsidy. That’s like saying the English language and calculus are a subsidy. They are definitely shoulders we all stand on, but not a subsidy.