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Carbon tax is a political tool and doesn't achieve anything in reality other than penalizing the first world while the rest get a pass, including China. Really

Carbon tax is a political tool and doesn't achieve anything in reality other than penalizing the first world while the rest get a pass, including China. Really, look into who proposes a carbon tax. It isn't scientists

ericd 4y ago
It doesn’t penalize first world nations, the carbon tax includes a carbon tax on all imports, called a “border carbon adjustment”. This includes things like long distance transport, so it’s actually fairly protectionist for the US vs Chinese manufacturing. It’s proposed by a huge assortment of economists, including a lot of heavyweights: https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/ https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/
- upsidesinclude 4y ago
  How many credits does a corporation receive? By what measure do newly founded companies assess their carbon expense? Economists!? Honestly not the group I would defer to at this particular moment in time. We are on the precipice of a possible global finance collapse thanks to their pseudoscience
  - ericd 4y ago
    It’s not measured with credits afaik, taxation happens at the time of carbon extraction from the ground or at the border if extracted elsewhere, or at the border for imported goods that haven’t had a carbon tax applied, to avoid disadvantageous local manufacturing. Inside the country it’s totally transparent, the price is just baked into fuel/goods made with fuel, from that initial tax. Things that use a lot of fuel get a lot more expensive, things that already used clean energy likely stay about the same, citizens get the receipts back, split evenly, so if you consume less carbon than average, you come out ahead. Corps don’t get rebates/credits. Make sense? Obviously a ridiculously tall order politically, maybe impossible, the rich would take the brunt, but it’ll also be harder for the middle/upper middle class to jet across the country. I’m also pessimistic about MMT and it’s effects, but I’d view that as more of a political necessity to keep the music going for debtor nations than something most economists thought was actually ideal. No one has the stomach for austerity, and it frankly would probably be catastrophic anyway, we just have to try to inflate our debt away without hitting hyperinflation.
    - upsidesinclude 4y ago
      >Obviously a ridiculously tall order politically, maybe impossible Maybe..? We have to transition away from growth economy and inflation, neither is sustainable. We're hitting the end of the line in under 100 years. If debt is fake and we're just using time to diminish it, then let's just do that and stop robbing people of their wealth. Likely impossible for politicians and economists to allow this either
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Carbon tax is a political tool and doesn't achieve anything in reality other than penalizing the first world while the rest get a pass, including China Half of china;s pollution comes from producing shit that we consume. We outsourced out pollution, and then have the gull to complain about it. You know where 99% of all electric busses are? In China. You know which country has more electrified rail than the rest of the world combined? China. You know which country has the highest percentage of it's population take high sspeed train isntead of flying? China.
- upsidesinclude 4y ago
  You're taking this in the entirely wrong direction. China has deplorable pollution, this is a fact. Busses and rail aside. The first world pays them to make cheap goods without regulation so that we can wash our hands and keep clean. Changes nothing about carbon tax
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    You are taking this in the. entirely wrong direction. China pollutes 3x less per person than US does, even taking into account the fact that they prodice our good. Their government actually takes climate change seriously and they invest more in clean technologies than we do. Other have commented that you are wrong about how carbon tax works as well This 'china the boogieman' and 'we will keep polluting untill china closes the last coal power plant' is the political fongerpointing of the lowerst sort.
    - upsidesinclude 4y ago
      Industrially? China pollutes less than the US per capita? Well, the US doesn't have 900 million peasants to dilute our numbers. Moreover, at 3:1, China is still a greater gross polluter, if you take the reporting from China at face value. From other data collected in China where there is 1. Profit 2. Political repercussion - the outputs always seem to match up with the government prescribed allowable limits.... Those arguments are assuming the carbon tax will work as it is on paper. I am assured by ever other treaty that China and other 3rd world countries will be granted exemption. China is not even the point. It's the whole "Third World" status protectionism racket. The entire program will not work unless the entire world plays by the same rules and adheres to the same standards. This will not happen

ericd 4y ago

It doesn’t penalize first world nations, the carbon tax includes a carbon tax on all imports, called a “border carbon adjustment”. This includes things like long distance transport, so it’s actually fairly protectionist for the US vs Chinese manufacturing. It’s proposed by a huge assortment of economists, including a lot of heavyweights: https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/ https://clcouncil.org/economists-statement/

upsidesinclude 4y ago
How many credits does a corporation receive? By what measure do newly founded companies assess their carbon expense? Economists!? Honestly not the group I would defer to at this particular moment in time. We are on the precipice of a possible global finance collapse thanks to their pseudoscience
- ericd 4y ago
  It’s not measured with credits afaik, taxation happens at the time of carbon extraction from the ground or at the border if extracted elsewhere, or at the border for imported goods that haven’t had a carbon tax applied, to avoid disadvantageous local manufacturing. Inside the country it’s totally transparent, the price is just baked into fuel/goods made with fuel, from that initial tax. Things that use a lot of fuel get a lot more expensive, things that already used clean energy likely stay about the same, citizens get the receipts back, split evenly, so if you consume less carbon than average, you come out ahead. Corps don’t get rebates/credits. Make sense? Obviously a ridiculously tall order politically, maybe impossible, the rich would take the brunt, but it’ll also be harder for the middle/upper middle class to jet across the country. I’m also pessimistic about MMT and it’s effects, but I’d view that as more of a political necessity to keep the music going for debtor nations than something most economists thought was actually ideal. No one has the stomach for austerity, and it frankly would probably be catastrophic anyway, we just have to try to inflate our debt away without hitting hyperinflation.
  - upsidesinclude 4y ago
    >Obviously a ridiculously tall order politically, maybe impossible Maybe..? We have to transition away from growth economy and inflation, neither is sustainable. We're hitting the end of the line in under 100 years. If debt is fake and we're just using time to diminish it, then let's just do that and stop robbing people of their wealth. Likely impossible for politicians and economists to allow this either

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> Carbon tax is a political tool and doesn't achieve anything in reality other than penalizing the first world while the rest get a pass, including China Half of china;s pollution comes from producing shit that we consume. We outsourced out pollution, and then have the gull to complain about it. You know where 99% of all electric busses are? In China. You know which country has more electrified rail than the rest of the world combined? China. You know which country has the highest percentage of it's population take high sspeed train isntead of flying? China.

upsidesinclude 4y ago
You're taking this in the entirely wrong direction. China has deplorable pollution, this is a fact. Busses and rail aside. The first world pays them to make cheap goods without regulation so that we can wash our hands and keep clean. Changes nothing about carbon tax
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  You are taking this in the. entirely wrong direction. China pollutes 3x less per person than US does, even taking into account the fact that they prodice our good. Their government actually takes climate change seriously and they invest more in clean technologies than we do. Other have commented that you are wrong about how carbon tax works as well This 'china the boogieman' and 'we will keep polluting untill china closes the last coal power plant' is the political fongerpointing of the lowerst sort.
  - upsidesinclude 4y ago
    Industrially? China pollutes less than the US per capita? Well, the US doesn't have 900 million peasants to dilute our numbers. Moreover, at 3:1, China is still a greater gross polluter, if you take the reporting from China at face value. From other data collected in China where there is 1. Profit 2. Political repercussion - the outputs always seem to match up with the government prescribed allowable limits.... Those arguments are assuming the carbon tax will work as it is on paper. I am assured by ever other treaty that China and other 3rd world countries will be granted exemption. China is not even the point. It's the whole "Third World" status protectionism racket. The entire program will not work unless the entire world plays by the same rules and adheres to the same standards. This will not happen