3 ms·

I don’t really agree with the premise here. Some of this boils down to defining terms. What is anxiety and what is ambition? But on a high level, I’d argue anx

I don’t really agree with the premise here. Some of this boils down to defining terms. What is anxiety and what is ambition? But on a high level, I’d argue anxiety and ambition are orthogonal. You can have ambition without having unhealthy levels of anxiety about it. Certainly not to the point of a disorder. Anxiety can push people to want to succeed. But is that the same as “ambition”? Where this falls apart is the article implies that medication for anxiety disorders is harmful to humanity as a whole. I have pretty severe anxiety and none of it helps me. It cripples me. There are things I want to accomplish in my life. I’m trying pretty hard for them, but managing a severe mental illness makes progress towards those goals slow. Somehow I manage to wake up every day and believe today can be better than yesterday. If not today, then there’s always tomorrow. This never makes me anxious, this brings me relief.

californical 4y ago
Mental health is tricky because its affects can be so complex depending on factors like personality, genetics, or even other mental health conditions. Something that fuels one person’s drive could incapacitate another, under neither of their own doing. I think people can have strategies for turning challenges and disabilities into assets, but again it takes the right set of circumstances for that individual. It takes strength to know when your specific circumstances aren’t lining up, and how to reach out for help (community, therapy, medication). And for some people, that condition may switch someday to enabling success rather than hindering. But to the point of the linked article, it talks about how maybe not needing to strive for overwhelming success in the first place leads to better overall life. How anxiety likely can drive you either up or down, but contentness is maybe in the middle somewhere. I’ve had this thought before. Robert Herjavec has mentioned on Shark Tank how he “sleeps 4 hours a night because he’s always working”… maybe that’s just how he wants to be seen, but why does he even feel the need to project that image? He must have absurd anxiety, because if not, he would’ve slowed down and been happy with what he has ages ago.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  > He must have absurd anxiety, because if not, he would’ve slowed down and been happy with what he has ages ago. Maybe ambition can create an anxiety if its own. Those who are at the top of their game in the corporate world, in athletics, the arts and entertainment, etc. can be subjected to hyper-competitive environments where they feel the need to continuously deliver, both extrinsically and intrinsically. Maybe they didn’t “have anxiety” prior to it, but they had the personality to thrive within the same sort of uncertain stressful situations.
- kayodelycaon 4y ago
  I want to poke at one thing you said, because it’s relevant to how I see the article. :) > He must have absurd anxiety… If the author of the article had said this, I would read it as : “The only way I imagine behaving like he does is to have absurd anxiety.” I think this is the trap the article falls into. Many times we lack the information or frame of reference to understand the motivations of other people. When that happens, we tend to use our own experience and motivations instead. Something I think about a lot when reading these articles because one of the “benefits” of being bipolar is having a very large frame of reference in regards to patterns of thought and emotional extremes.
knaik94 4y ago
There's a pretty clear line for me between anxiety and ambition. The difference is my perception of the goal and the theoretical positive benefit I would gain from working through this struggle. Anxiety implies and unknown underlying driver. Ambition implies I understand, to some degree, what I am getting into and am choosing to work through the discomfort anyway. They are the same thing mechanically, they affect me the same way emotionally as I am going through them. The difference is mostly about how well I could predict and plan for this struggle. I do understand where you are coming from but would argue that the healthy and unhealthy line you are drawing has more to do with the outcomes you are expecting, rather than the struggle itself. Severe anxiety is a symptom, not necessarily a source of struggle. I don't know the mechanics of why it works, but my personal experience has taught me that the transition from unhealthy to healthy isn't something I had to put energy into doing. It felt more like a consequence of reframing how I felt the rewards at the end of a struggle. It was difficult at first to separate the anxiety I felt from the negative physical symptoms I associated with it, but once I did, I started to understand what situations triggered them. Caring intensely about meeting self-defined performance standards made me really anxious about performing or getting reviews about my performance. I also realized that I won't ever stop caring. I don't think any part of me wants to stop caring. But after finding something I felt passionate about, I realized that caring was positive. I feel anxious because I want myself, or something I made, to do well. That realization made me feel relief, and I was able to let go of some of the spirals of negative thinking that I had previously assumed had to be attached to things that make me anxious. I guess you can say it helped attenuate the anxiety to healthy levels. I think you can agree that anxiety is a symptom and not a direct cause of harmful behavior, medication treating the symptom is at times necessary but if the underlying cause isn't addressed, the anxiety will come back worse. The article seems to be addressing anxiety as closer in intensity to performance anxiety, and the fear of failing, and not crippling anxiety, to the point where it interferes with daily functioning. The grey area is when you end up in a situation where high-functioning feels like the bare minimum due to ambition. This is why I agree that ambition and anxiety are two sides of the same coin, and the bridge between once side and the other is passion. I know anxiety isn't nearly as simple or easy to categorize as I am making it sound. It's a very personal and subjective thing, but this is my general take on it. I don't believe ambition is a disorder, but like most things in medicine and psychology, the definition of disorder is relative. If you have a room full of people that self-select themselves as highly ambitious, certain struggles will be shared and feel natural, even if isolated the same struggles would not seem worthwhile to go through. I say I don't believe it's a disorder, while accepting that I am one of the self-selecting highly ambitious. Ambition also has nothing to do with execution. Ambition and passion is a signal of how persistent someone will be in pursuing their goals. Anxiety is a product of discomfort and discomfort is inherently tied to growth and ambition. Not all forms of anxiety are rational or necessary. But I strongly believe that achieving something and realizing your ambition will always involve anxiety. The deeper question I am still working on figuring out is the relationship between success and passion. Is passion defined by something innate and so someone will put themselves in uncomfortable and anxiety inducing situations in order to be successful? Or is the opposite more likely, where passion is clear only with hindsight and the natural drive to give struggle meaning, causes certain anxieties to be rewarded, and anxiety itself is foundational to being human. As the reflex of fight or flight, and startle response, is built into our biology, I have started believing the latter to be true. The source of passion is most likely a consequence of probability and nurture, not nature. Being ambitious and continuously increasing expectations for myself means I also see "if not today, then there's always tomorrow" as a source of relief. I would say ambition and anxiety have strong parallels, if not ambition being a subset of anxiety.

californical 4y ago

Mental health is tricky because its affects can be so complex depending on factors like personality, genetics, or even other mental health conditions. Something that fuels one person’s drive could incapacitate another, under neither of their own doing. I think people can have strategies for turning challenges and disabilities into assets, but again it takes the right set of circumstances for that individual. It takes strength to know when your specific circumstances aren’t lining up, and how to reach out for help (community, therapy, medication). And for some people, that condition may switch someday to enabling success rather than hindering. But to the point of the linked article, it talks about how maybe not needing to strive for overwhelming success in the first place leads to better overall life. How anxiety likely can drive you either up or down, but contentness is maybe in the middle somewhere. I’ve had this thought before. Robert Herjavec has mentioned on Shark Tank how he “sleeps 4 hours a night because he’s always working”… maybe that’s just how he wants to be seen, but why does he even feel the need to project that image? He must have absurd anxiety, because if not, he would’ve slowed down and been happy with what he has ages ago.

Apocryphon 4y ago
> He must have absurd anxiety, because if not, he would’ve slowed down and been happy with what he has ages ago. Maybe ambition can create an anxiety if its own. Those who are at the top of their game in the corporate world, in athletics, the arts and entertainment, etc. can be subjected to hyper-competitive environments where they feel the need to continuously deliver, both extrinsically and intrinsically. Maybe they didn’t “have anxiety” prior to it, but they had the personality to thrive within the same sort of uncertain stressful situations.
kayodelycaon 4y ago
I want to poke at one thing you said, because it’s relevant to how I see the article. :) > He must have absurd anxiety… If the author of the article had said this, I would read it as : “The only way I imagine behaving like he does is to have absurd anxiety.” I think this is the trap the article falls into. Many times we lack the information or frame of reference to understand the motivations of other people. When that happens, we tend to use our own experience and motivations instead. Something I think about a lot when reading these articles because one of the “benefits” of being bipolar is having a very large frame of reference in regards to patterns of thought and emotional extremes.

knaik94 4y ago

There's a pretty clear line for me between anxiety and ambition. The difference is my perception of the goal and the theoretical positive benefit I would gain from working through this struggle. Anxiety implies and unknown underlying driver. Ambition implies I understand, to some degree, what I am getting into and am choosing to work through the discomfort anyway. They are the same thing mechanically, they affect me the same way emotionally as I am going through them. The difference is mostly about how well I could predict and plan for this struggle. I do understand where you are coming from but would argue that the healthy and unhealthy line you are drawing has more to do with the outcomes you are expecting, rather than the struggle itself. Severe anxiety is a symptom, not necessarily a source of struggle. I don't know the mechanics of why it works, but my personal experience has taught me that the transition from unhealthy to healthy isn't something I had to put energy into doing. It felt more like a consequence of reframing how I felt the rewards at the end of a struggle. It was difficult at first to separate the anxiety I felt from the negative physical symptoms I associated with it, but once I did, I started to understand what situations triggered them. Caring intensely about meeting self-defined performance standards made me really anxious about performing or getting reviews about my performance. I also realized that I won't ever stop caring. I don't think any part of me wants to stop caring. But after finding something I felt passionate about, I realized that caring was positive. I feel anxious because I want myself, or something I made, to do well. That realization made me feel relief, and I was able to let go of some of the spirals of negative thinking that I had previously assumed had to be attached to things that make me anxious. I guess you can say it helped attenuate the anxiety to healthy levels. I think you can agree that anxiety is a symptom and not a direct cause of harmful behavior, medication treating the symptom is at times necessary but if the underlying cause isn't addressed, the anxiety will come back worse. The article seems to be addressing anxiety as closer in intensity to performance anxiety, and the fear of failing, and not crippling anxiety, to the point where it interferes with daily functioning. The grey area is when you end up in a situation where high-functioning feels like the bare minimum due to ambition. This is why I agree that ambition and anxiety are two sides of the same coin, and the bridge between once side and the other is passion. I know anxiety isn't nearly as simple or easy to categorize as I am making it sound. It's a very personal and subjective thing, but this is my general take on it. I don't believe ambition is a disorder, but like most things in medicine and psychology, the definition of disorder is relative. If you have a room full of people that self-select themselves as highly ambitious, certain struggles will be shared and feel natural, even if isolated the same struggles would not seem worthwhile to go through. I say I don't believe it's a disorder, while accepting that I am one of the self-selecting highly ambitious. Ambition also has nothing to do with execution. Ambition and passion is a signal of how persistent someone will be in pursuing their goals. Anxiety is a product of discomfort and discomfort is inherently tied to growth and ambition. Not all forms of anxiety are rational or necessary. But I strongly believe that achieving something and realizing your ambition will always involve anxiety. The deeper question I am still working on figuring out is the relationship between success and passion. Is passion defined by something innate and so someone will put themselves in uncomfortable and anxiety inducing situations in order to be successful? Or is the opposite more likely, where passion is clear only with hindsight and the natural drive to give struggle meaning, causes certain anxieties to be rewarded, and anxiety itself is foundational to being human. As the reflex of fight or flight, and startle response, is built into our biology, I have started believing the latter to be true. The source of passion is most likely a consequence of probability and nurture, not nature. Being ambitious and continuously increasing expectations for myself means I also see "if not today, then there's always tomorrow" as a source of relief. I would say ambition and anxiety have strong parallels, if not ambition being a subset of anxiety.