5 ms·

Like a teenager before a date Mac seems to be entirely about looks, oh everything works well both OS and hardware but sometimes it seems looks come before funct

by dhughes 15y ago

Like a teenager before a date Mac seems to be entirely about looks, oh everything works well both OS and hardware but sometimes it seems looks come before function. No separate delete or backspace keys, no multiple desktops, breathtakingly expensive hardware and software, awkward layout of files in the GUI, closing apps frustrating X doesn't close the app it minimizes it but you also have a minimize button (??), am I copying/pasting/cutting?, old text documents open behind new text documents are opened (a bug maybe or my fault). Apple OS X Lion is nice to look at and fairly easy to use if not entirely intuitive but it;s not as perfect as some people make it out to be.

watmough 15y ago
You can't blame Lion for not having a delete key! It's a hardware choice. Add a wired USB keyboard (I use the long Apple one) and there's a perfectly functional delete key, right there! What you can blame Lion for, is the fact that Xcode4 can't even scroll a sodding code window at repeat rate. Quad-core and discrete graphics, utterly ridiculous.
- dhughes 15y ago
  Yes true it's a hardware issue not OS and yes that's one option to use an external keyboard but I don't want to drag an external keyboard around with me otherwise I wouldn't have bought a laptop. The lack of a delete key actually labeled "delete" (not backspace labeled "delete") just seems to be a glaring error along with no separate number keypad. More thought went into making it look pretty than to make it useful. I'd sell this Macbook but I'm getting to like the swipe trackpad.
  - X-Istence 15y ago
    How do you want them to fit a number keypad on a laptop? Fn + Delete does what you want.
    - dhughes 15y ago
      The speakers (on a 17" Macbook Pro) could be relocated, they're not much use where they are when I type since my hands block the sound partially anyway why not move then and expand the keyboard? No, pressing the Delete key makes the cursor go back a space. On Linux and Windows Delete pulls the text in from the right towards the cursor deleting it. I know Apple Macs are different but it seems odd why they wouldn't keep similar methods of using the keyboard, they made Darwin based on BSD (yes?) they obviously didn't keep the Delete and Backspace or does BSD not have Backspace only Delete? As I said I'm new to Mac but triple booting would be nicer if 1 of the 3 OS versions didn't have a keyboard that was so weird.
      - X-Istence 15y ago
        You didn't read what I had typed. Hold Fn and then hit Delete. Problem solved.
        dhughes 15y ago
        I did and before that I even mentioned it first in a different reply above since I knew it would be brought up. Two keys on opposite ends of the keyboards requiring two key presses not exactly ergonomic.
      - rbanffy 15y ago
        A numeric keyboard could, in theory, fit on a 17" MBP, but that would make the computer ugly. If you are fine with that, you can get something from HP or Sony for substantially less than a MPB.
  - philwelch 15y ago
    > The lack of a delete key actually labeled "delete" (not backspace labeled "delete") It's not a "glaring error" that it isn't labeled exactly like a PC. Apple keyboards have labeled the keys "delete" and "return" instead of "backspace" and "enter" since probably before the days that IBM labeled them "backspace" and "enter".
whiskers 15y ago
"breathtakingly expensive hardware and software" Where can you get something considerably cheaper than the Macbook Airs that sport: - 128GB SSD (13") - 1440x900 (13") display - 4GB of RAM - Core i5 - operating system included - thin, light, and have quality construction For £1099 including taxes?
- watmough 15y ago
  This is kinda sad, but flying to NY and buying it on 5th Avenue would probably get you exactly the same computer for much less! *Aside from the keycaps of course.
- MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230171 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230... is such a thing, and at $1099 USD, it's nearly half of your quoted price. Unfortunately, it has a widescreen which has more pixels than you asked for, but somehow I don't think that's a bad thing. It comes with Windows, but if you want a real operating system, you can install any Linux you like on there. Or a BSD. Go for it. Also, I was going to just answer "mu" to your question, and be done with it. Macbooks don't have quality construction; that's why their hinges keep falling apart after a year or two of actual use. It's been a problem since the Powerbook days. So, uh, yeah. Apple products are too fuckin' expensive. (Oh, and there were a handful of VAIOs that also fit this criteria, but let's be honest, VAIOs are not real computers.)
  - JBiserkov 15y ago
    I am an Asus owner (my third laptop in a row), and am actually considering getting a ZenBook, BUT it has no dockstation, while the MBA has THUNDERBOLT, which combined with a Thunderbolt display gives you an amazing configuration. Don't trust me, go look it up: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4832/the-apple-thunderbolt-display-review http://www.anandtech.com/show/4832/the-apple-thunderbolt-dis... http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air/select http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macboo...
Jyaif 15y ago
FYI: multiple desktops are built in OS X (and in my opinion it's the best implementation there is).
vertr 15y ago
On the small apple keyboards pressing function-delete will act the same as a Windows delete key.
egypturnash 15y ago
When's the last time you used one? There've been multiple desktops ("Spaces") since 2006. And I've never had any confusion between copying, pasting, and cutting. Ever. Unless you're talking about expecting that weird-ass Windows behavior where you "cut" files to copy them around? Why's "open two windows and drag stuff to move, maybe with alt held down to copy" so hard? OSX makes a big distinction between "quitting an app" and "closing all document windows" I really LIKE that I can have a big app like Illustrator loaded but dormant with no open windows to bother me.
- dhughes 15y ago
  Last time I used a Mac? As I said this is my first one ever. My comparisons are the different behaviour between Mac, Linux and Windows or specifically how Windows and Linux are similar but Apple OS X is just slightly (annoyingly) different. I right-click on a file there isn't any visible/intuitive option to move not copy that file to another location other than just copy it. Don't you find that weird? Forget keyboard shortcuts there are probably hundreds for each OS that nobody ever uses or knows about, in fact most people I know at work are shocked when shown CTRL+X, CTRL+V, CTRL+C. Yes Command+C copies, Command+V pastes but Command+X does nothing except play a mellow jazzy error sound. I can't even delete a file using Delete key now you have to admit that's screwy! Pick a file, click to select press Delete - nothing happens. Who knows maybe I'll get used it to that's my point for getting a Mac I'm just amazed at OS X's awkward differences between Windows and Linux. Different isn't bad it's just different.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    You complain OSX is different from your previous experience. That's unreasonable. Macs have always been about simplicity and consistency building a predictable user experience. My experience with Macs is, like I said before, as a casual user with occasional work done in terminal sessions and Emacs (which is consistent on every computer I have), but you can trust me on that - the differences between the environments will get burned into your brain soon enough and you'll be able to easily switch between contexts.
X-Istence 15y ago
> No separate delete or backspace keys, Maybe not on Apple's laptops, but Apple's full size keyboards have it. Also, fn + "delete" will have the effect of deleting a character in front of the current cursor. > no multiple desktops, Mission control has multiple desktops, or are you conveniently forgetting that. Also, Windows and multiple desktops? > breathtakingly expensive hardware and software, Mac OS X at $30, then iWork at $79, iLife at $79. Should we compare to Windows? (comparing to Linux and free everything is always going to be expensive). > awkward layout of files in the GUI, Eh, what? > closing apps frustrating X doesn't close the app it minimizes it but you also have a minimize button (??), No, one closes the current context. Lets say you have 10 Word documents open, you can close the single instance using the red button, if you use the yellow button it minimizes it down to the dock. The two buttons have very different behaviors. When you have Microsoft Word open on Windows, you can have multiple documents open as well, when you close one you don't want to close all of them, well on Mac OS X when you close the last one it won't quit the full application, whereas in Windows it will. Mac OS X Lion has solved this by allowing applications to specify that they are no longer in use and when required they will be quit. > am I copying/pasting/cutting?, Cmd + C == Copy Cmd + V == Paste Cmd + X == Cut Clearly you are using it in a different context ...

by dhughes 15y ago

watmough 15y ago

You can't blame Lion for not having a delete key! It's a hardware choice. Add a wired USB keyboard (I use the long Apple one) and there's a perfectly functional delete key, right there! What you can blame Lion for, is the fact that Xcode4 can't even scroll a sodding code window at repeat rate. Quad-core and discrete graphics, utterly ridiculous.

dhughes 15y ago
Yes true it's a hardware issue not OS and yes that's one option to use an external keyboard but I don't want to drag an external keyboard around with me otherwise I wouldn't have bought a laptop. The lack of a delete key actually labeled "delete" (not backspace labeled "delete") just seems to be a glaring error along with no separate number keypad. More thought went into making it look pretty than to make it useful. I'd sell this Macbook but I'm getting to like the swipe trackpad.
- X-Istence 15y ago
  How do you want them to fit a number keypad on a laptop? Fn + Delete does what you want.
  - dhughes 15y ago
    The speakers (on a 17" Macbook Pro) could be relocated, they're not much use where they are when I type since my hands block the sound partially anyway why not move then and expand the keyboard? No, pressing the Delete key makes the cursor go back a space. On Linux and Windows Delete pulls the text in from the right towards the cursor deleting it. I know Apple Macs are different but it seems odd why they wouldn't keep similar methods of using the keyboard, they made Darwin based on BSD (yes?) they obviously didn't keep the Delete and Backspace or does BSD not have Backspace only Delete? As I said I'm new to Mac but triple booting would be nicer if 1 of the 3 OS versions didn't have a keyboard that was so weird.
    - X-Istence 15y ago
      You didn't read what I had typed. Hold Fn and then hit Delete. Problem solved.
      - dhughes 15y ago
        I did and before that I even mentioned it first in a different reply above since I knew it would be brought up. Two keys on opposite ends of the keyboards requiring two key presses not exactly ergonomic.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      A numeric keyboard could, in theory, fit on a 17" MBP, but that would make the computer ugly. If you are fine with that, you can get something from HP or Sony for substantially less than a MPB.
- philwelch 15y ago
  > The lack of a delete key actually labeled "delete" (not backspace labeled "delete") It's not a "glaring error" that it isn't labeled exactly like a PC. Apple keyboards have labeled the keys "delete" and "return" instead of "backspace" and "enter" since probably before the days that IBM labeled them "backspace" and "enter".

whiskers 15y ago

"breathtakingly expensive hardware and software" Where can you get something considerably cheaper than the Macbook Airs that sport: - 128GB SSD (13") - 1440x900 (13") display - 4GB of RAM - Core i5 - operating system included - thin, light, and have quality construction For £1099 including taxes?

watmough 15y ago
This is kinda sad, but flying to NY and buying it on 5th Avenue would probably get you exactly the same computer for much less! *Aside from the keycaps of course.
MostAwesomeDude 15y ago
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230171 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230... is such a thing, and at $1099 USD, it's nearly half of your quoted price. Unfortunately, it has a widescreen which has more pixels than you asked for, but somehow I don't think that's a bad thing. It comes with Windows, but if you want a real operating system, you can install any Linux you like on there. Or a BSD. Go for it. Also, I was going to just answer "mu" to your question, and be done with it. Macbooks don't have quality construction; that's why their hinges keep falling apart after a year or two of actual use. It's been a problem since the Powerbook days. So, uh, yeah. Apple products are too fuckin' expensive. (Oh, and there were a handful of VAIOs that also fit this criteria, but let's be honest, VAIOs are not real computers.)
- JBiserkov 15y ago
  I am an Asus owner (my third laptop in a row), and am actually considering getting a ZenBook, BUT it has no dockstation, while the MBA has THUNDERBOLT, which combined with a Thunderbolt display gives you an amazing configuration. Don't trust me, go look it up: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4832/the-apple-thunderbolt-display-review http://www.anandtech.com/show/4832/the-apple-thunderbolt-dis... http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html http://www.apple.com/displays/specs.html http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_air/select http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macboo...

Jyaif 15y ago

FYI: multiple desktops are built in OS X (and in my opinion it's the best implementation there is).

vertr 15y ago

On the small apple keyboards pressing function-delete will act the same as a Windows delete key.

egypturnash 15y ago

When's the last time you used one? There've been multiple desktops ("Spaces") since 2006. And I've never had any confusion between copying, pasting, and cutting. Ever. Unless you're talking about expecting that weird-ass Windows behavior where you "cut" files to copy them around? Why's "open two windows and drag stuff to move, maybe with alt held down to copy" so hard? OSX makes a big distinction between "quitting an app" and "closing all document windows" I really LIKE that I can have a big app like Illustrator loaded but dormant with no open windows to bother me.

dhughes 15y ago
Last time I used a Mac? As I said this is my first one ever. My comparisons are the different behaviour between Mac, Linux and Windows or specifically how Windows and Linux are similar but Apple OS X is just slightly (annoyingly) different. I right-click on a file there isn't any visible/intuitive option to move not copy that file to another location other than just copy it. Don't you find that weird? Forget keyboard shortcuts there are probably hundreds for each OS that nobody ever uses or knows about, in fact most people I know at work are shocked when shown CTRL+X, CTRL+V, CTRL+C. Yes Command+C copies, Command+V pastes but Command+X does nothing except play a mellow jazzy error sound. I can't even delete a file using Delete key now you have to admit that's screwy! Pick a file, click to select press Delete - nothing happens. Who knows maybe I'll get used it to that's my point for getting a Mac I'm just amazed at OS X's awkward differences between Windows and Linux. Different isn't bad it's just different.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  You complain OSX is different from your previous experience. That's unreasonable. Macs have always been about simplicity and consistency building a predictable user experience. My experience with Macs is, like I said before, as a casual user with occasional work done in terminal sessions and Emacs (which is consistent on every computer I have), but you can trust me on that - the differences between the environments will get burned into your brain soon enough and you'll be able to easily switch between contexts.

X-Istence 15y ago

> No separate delete or backspace keys, Maybe not on Apple's laptops, but Apple's full size keyboards have it. Also, fn + "delete" will have the effect of deleting a character in front of the current cursor. > no multiple desktops, Mission control has multiple desktops, or are you conveniently forgetting that. Also, Windows and multiple desktops? > breathtakingly expensive hardware and software, Mac OS X at $30, then iWork at $79, iLife at $79. Should we compare to Windows? (comparing to Linux and free everything is always going to be expensive). > awkward layout of files in the GUI, Eh, what? > closing apps frustrating X doesn't close the app it minimizes it but you also have a minimize button (??), No, one closes the current context. Lets say you have 10 Word documents open, you can close the single instance using the red button, if you use the yellow button it minimizes it down to the dock. The two buttons have very different behaviors. When you have Microsoft Word open on Windows, you can have multiple documents open as well, when you close one you don't want to close all of them, well on Mac OS X when you close the last one it won't quit the full application, whereas in Windows it will. Mac OS X Lion has solved this by allowing applications to specify that they are no longer in use and when required they will be quit. > am I copying/pasting/cutting?, Cmd + C == Copy Cmd + V == Paste Cmd + X == Cut Clearly you are using it in a different context ...