3 ms·

Are you arguing that there was some direct intervention during the origins of life? Like, an intelligent being stuck a probe into a chemical mixture and tipped

Are you arguing that there was some direct intervention during the origins of life? Like, an intelligent being stuck a probe into a chemical mixture and tipped it towards generating cells? Or, perhaps you're arguing that the rules of the universe were designed in a way that guaranteed that life would arise? Something else?

rmbyrro 4y ago
More on line of the second thought, yes. To me, Universal laws aren't random. If they were, I'd expect them to change from time to time. These laws are immutable and inexorable. They respect, interact and cooperate perfectly with each other. How did they come to exist and be that way if not by intelligence and will? I have no idea how this works or came to exist, but it definitely doesn't look random to me.
- trasz 4y ago
  They don’t cooperate perfectly; they cooperate somehow. They could be entirely different, and the life would look different - but there’s no reason to think it wouldn’t work.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  Wouldn't this also have to assume a single universe. If our universe is just one of many, then randomness can still play an affect. We just happen to live in the universe with these laws. But the universe next door might have gotten a significantly different dice roll. Does that mean life isn't present there? No exactly, but I imagine it would look much different than us.
  - throwoutway 4y ago
    Our universe is single. The many concept is/was an attempt to make a square fit in a round hole when looking at some perplexing results. To me, Occam’s Razor points to intelligence arguments as simpler rather than the “multi universe” arguments
    - tcmart14 4y ago
      And what evidence do you base that on? The math shows it is possible for multi-universe. No hard evidence exists it. So couldn't just saying the math that alludes to this is wrong is just as equivalent of this square peg doesn't fit into my round hole? And the universe also has a bunch of repeated structures, so why wouldn't a universe also be a repeated structure? A heart is a common one found in many different animals. They are each different in their own way, but it is a structure that is repeated. Same with atoms. They all follow the same basic structure, but it is repeated with just various configurations.
- 323 4y ago
  There is a physical theory which postulates that life is inevitable and a consequence of the laws of physics: > The thermodynamic dissipation theory thus assgins an explicit thermodynamic function to life; the dissipative structuring, proliferation, and evolution of molecular pigments and their complexes from common precursor carbon based molecules under the impressed short wavelength solar photon potential to perform the explicit thermodynamic function of dissipating this light into long wavelength infrared light (heat). In a general sense, the origin of life is no different than the origin of other dissipative structuring processes like hurricanes and the water cycle, except that these latter processes deal with structuring involving hydrogen bonding while life deals with structuring involving covalent bonding. The external photon potential supplied continuously by the environment (our Sun), and its dissipation into heat by the assembly of dissipative structures, are, therefore, both integral components necessary for understanding life. https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/6923 https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/6923 > The formula, based on established physics, indicates that when a group of atoms is driven by an external source of energy (like the sun or chemical fuel) and surrounded by a heat bath (like the ocean or atmosphere), it will often gradually restructure itself in order to dissipate increasingly more energy. This could mean that under certain conditions, matter inexorably acquires the key physical attribute associated with life. https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-o...
  - cout 4y ago
    If the origin of life is no different than the origin of hurricanes, could this be taken one step further to say that there might be some self- replicating wind phenomenon on some planet out there? We typically assume that life necessarily means self-replicating molecules, but why limit it to chemical processes?
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      wind is self replicating on our planet. it consumes energy from the sun and produces more wind.
- oneoff786 4y ago
  Whether universal laws are self evident, random or intelligently designed is irrelevant to the discussion at hand though. The laws are there. It is through these laws that life arose. We have a procedural generation algorithm and a seed. Even if you claim there is a single god that created both of these things, backwards deriving the seed necessary to generate the current state, it still routes through this physical process which is describable with physics and could be extrapolated to other starting conditions or future scenarios that humans can utilize. It makes no difference.
  - rmbyrro 4y ago
    I think it makes a difference in that we're discussing the origin of life. Some argue the origin is in the - supposedly random - combination of molecules. Others think the answer is deeper and relates to more fundamental aspects of nature.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      No, you’re arguing for two separate acts of intelligent design. The laws of the universe and the formation of life. But the fact is that the latter is formable by randomness within the former. It is the expected outcome within our universe that stable structure propagate into something that doesn’t look or feel random. Whether you believe the entire universal rule system is intelligently designed is outside the observable scope of things for now so whatever. Sure. God, simulation, just being like it is. Whatever.
- sterlind 4y ago
  how do neural networks learn? is it by intelligence and will? no, it's by backpropagation. error is propagated and minimized. simple equations lead to emergent complexity. canyons form as water follows paths of least resistance, and incrementally erode rock. the water doesn't use its intelligence and will to construct a canal, even though the resulting river system looks like a max flow solution. the intelligence and will emerges from the math. simple systems with enough feedback can become very sophisticated.
  - rmbyrro 4y ago
    Do neural networks come to existence by random combinations of atoms? We're not discussing how things act intelligently, but rather why, what's the origin of the intelligence in the process. Some argue there's no intelligence, it's just randomness. Others think this is not a rationally acceptable explanation for what nature is showing us.
- giva 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

rmbyrro 4y ago

More on line of the second thought, yes. To me, Universal laws aren't random. If they were, I'd expect them to change from time to time. These laws are immutable and inexorable. They respect, interact and cooperate perfectly with each other. How did they come to exist and be that way if not by intelligence and will? I have no idea how this works or came to exist, but it definitely doesn't look random to me.

trasz 4y ago
They don’t cooperate perfectly; they cooperate somehow. They could be entirely different, and the life would look different - but there’s no reason to think it wouldn’t work.
tcmart14 4y ago
Wouldn't this also have to assume a single universe. If our universe is just one of many, then randomness can still play an affect. We just happen to live in the universe with these laws. But the universe next door might have gotten a significantly different dice roll. Does that mean life isn't present there? No exactly, but I imagine it would look much different than us.
- throwoutway 4y ago
  Our universe is single. The many concept is/was an attempt to make a square fit in a round hole when looking at some perplexing results. To me, Occam’s Razor points to intelligence arguments as simpler rather than the “multi universe” arguments
  - tcmart14 4y ago
    And what evidence do you base that on? The math shows it is possible for multi-universe. No hard evidence exists it. So couldn't just saying the math that alludes to this is wrong is just as equivalent of this square peg doesn't fit into my round hole? And the universe also has a bunch of repeated structures, so why wouldn't a universe also be a repeated structure? A heart is a common one found in many different animals. They are each different in their own way, but it is a structure that is repeated. Same with atoms. They all follow the same basic structure, but it is repeated with just various configurations.
323 4y ago
There is a physical theory which postulates that life is inevitable and a consequence of the laws of physics: > The thermodynamic dissipation theory thus assgins an explicit thermodynamic function to life; the dissipative structuring, proliferation, and evolution of molecular pigments and their complexes from common precursor carbon based molecules under the impressed short wavelength solar photon potential to perform the explicit thermodynamic function of dissipating this light into long wavelength infrared light (heat). In a general sense, the origin of life is no different than the origin of other dissipative structuring processes like hurricanes and the water cycle, except that these latter processes deal with structuring involving hydrogen bonding while life deals with structuring involving covalent bonding. The external photon potential supplied continuously by the environment (our Sun), and its dissipation into heat by the assembly of dissipative structures, are, therefore, both integral components necessary for understanding life. https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/6923 https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/6923 > The formula, based on established physics, indicates that when a group of atoms is driven by an external source of energy (like the sun or chemical fuel) and surrounded by a heat bath (like the ocean or atmosphere), it will often gradually restructure itself in order to dissipate increasingly more energy. This could mean that under certain conditions, matter inexorably acquires the key physical attribute associated with life. https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-of-the-origin-of-life-20140122/ https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-new-thermodynamics-theory-o...
- cout 4y ago
  If the origin of life is no different than the origin of hurricanes, could this be taken one step further to say that there might be some self- replicating wind phenomenon on some planet out there? We typically assume that life necessarily means self-replicating molecules, but why limit it to chemical processes?
  - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
    wind is self replicating on our planet. it consumes energy from the sun and produces more wind.
oneoff786 4y ago
Whether universal laws are self evident, random or intelligently designed is irrelevant to the discussion at hand though. The laws are there. It is through these laws that life arose. We have a procedural generation algorithm and a seed. Even if you claim there is a single god that created both of these things, backwards deriving the seed necessary to generate the current state, it still routes through this physical process which is describable with physics and could be extrapolated to other starting conditions or future scenarios that humans can utilize. It makes no difference.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  I think it makes a difference in that we're discussing the origin of life. Some argue the origin is in the - supposedly random - combination of molecules. Others think the answer is deeper and relates to more fundamental aspects of nature.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    No, you’re arguing for two separate acts of intelligent design. The laws of the universe and the formation of life. But the fact is that the latter is formable by randomness within the former. It is the expected outcome within our universe that stable structure propagate into something that doesn’t look or feel random. Whether you believe the entire universal rule system is intelligently designed is outside the observable scope of things for now so whatever. Sure. God, simulation, just being like it is. Whatever.
sterlind 4y ago
how do neural networks learn? is it by intelligence and will? no, it's by backpropagation. error is propagated and minimized. simple equations lead to emergent complexity. canyons form as water follows paths of least resistance, and incrementally erode rock. the water doesn't use its intelligence and will to construct a canal, even though the resulting river system looks like a max flow solution. the intelligence and will emerges from the math. simple systems with enough feedback can become very sophisticated.
- rmbyrro 4y ago
  Do neural networks come to existence by random combinations of atoms? We're not discussing how things act intelligently, but rather why, what's the origin of the intelligence in the process. Some argue there's no intelligence, it's just randomness. Others think this is not a rationally acceptable explanation for what nature is showing us.
giva 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle