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There’s a lot of good stuff to report on: Ozone Healing Acid Rain is not really a thing anymore There is 2.24 million more square kilometers of forestland tha

There’s a lot of good stuff to report on: Ozone Healing Acid Rain is not really a thing anymore There is 2.24 million more square kilometers of forestland than 35 years ago Millions of people have been lifted out of poverty and the trend is accelerating Renewable energy has finally become cost effective By most metrics we’re better off than the 90s except for people’s sentiment.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
“There is 2.24 million more square kilometers of forestland than 35 years ago” How can this be true when our rate of deforestation is accelerating? The state of deforestation is nothing to celebrate, it’s horrific as far as I understand it. “By most metrics we’re better off than the 90’s” Except for economic metrics and people’s material well being?? This sounds like Steven Pinker stuff.
- nightshift1 4y ago
  Indeed. The rich countries are gaining forestland but it is only because everything is imported now. Including the deforestation. https://ourworldindata.org/deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/deforestation Same thing for the acid rain. https://www.britannica.com/story/what-happened-to-acid-rain https://www.britannica.com/story/what-happened-to-acid-rain
  - goldenkey 4y ago
- googlryas 4y ago
  > How can this be true when our rate of deforestation is accelerating Where are you getting this from? In any case, tropical deforestation may be accelerating, but perhaps temperate reforestation is accelerating even faster.
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    Well it seems we were both wrong. According to this link the rate of deforestation is decreasing. But still, they say there is less forest now than there was in 1990. "Since 1990, it is estimated that 420 million hectares of forest have been lost through conversion to other land uses, although the rate of deforestation has decreased over the past three decades. Between 2015 and 2020, the rate of deforestation was estimated at 10 million hectares per year, down from 16 million hectares per year in the 1990s. The area of primary forest worldwide has decreased by over 80 million hectares since 1990." https://www.fao.org/state-of-forests/en/ https://www.fao.org/state-of-forests/en/
  - hinkley 4y ago
    Based on our current understanding of fungally dominated soils, restoring temperate forests will do far more per acre for atmospheric carbon levels than restoring the same acreage of tropical rainforest. Which we also need to do soon because the longer you wait, the wider the band around the Tropics where fungally dominated ecosystems cannot thrive. Not that we shouldn't have people working to slow tropical deforestation, but we can't and shouldn't put all our eggs in that basket.
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  You don't strike me as convinable by facts, but for those who are: https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty
  - goldenkey 4y ago
    The only facts I will accept are Cat Facts provided in a court room operating under Bird Law.
  - SequoiaHope 4y ago
    Actually I just didn't share data because I forgot the name of the author who has best spoken to this critique, but I dug him up and it's Jason Hickel. He responded directly to Steven Pinker's rosy optimism about the world, in particular pointing out that our bar for what is extreme poverty is a made up number that is too low. If you use a more reasonable measure for extreme poverty, the situation looks a little different. It has improved in some areas and expanded in others. Notably, people like Pinker use their argument to say basically that capitalism is good. But Hickel points out that most of the gains were in China, where the economic system that led to all this growth was a very mixed system of capitalism combined with heavy state control. So under no circumstances can we conclude that free market capitalism is the main driver of reductions in extreme poverty. https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-poverty https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-...
    - blackoil 4y ago
      India, Indonesia, Vietnam and other have also seen massive reduction in extreme poverty after adapting a capitalistic market system. All of them are different socially and politically but the free market impact is real.
    - BurningFrog 4y ago
      I was giving data backing the statement "By most metrics we’re better off than the 90’s". Didn't mention capitalism. Then you change the topic to talking about how it's not proven that capitalism is good. It's not interesting to be on this side of such a discussion.
- SequoiaHope 4y ago
  Replying to myself since I can no longer edit, but with so many questions I finally dug up the author who I was trying to think of as a source to go against this kind of rosy picture of the status quo. It's Jason Hickel and he has written a critique of Steven Pinker's optimism. https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-poverty https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-... Where Pinker looks at some arbitrarily defined numbers to decide that extreme poverty has gone down, and capitalism is the reason, Hickel criticizes those poverty numbers for being artificially low due to a poor selection of the poverty line, and points out that most of the reduction in poverty happened in china, where the system Steven Pinker argues for is not being used. Finally anyone who is paying attention to the economics of people in just the USA for example must know that real wages in the USA have been stagnant for the average person since 1980, while living costs continue to rise. So the average person is NOT better off than they were in the 1990's, they are actually worse off. People like Bill Gates LOVE Steve Pinker because Pinker provides an excuse to say the status quo is fine and everything is great. But in reality time is not a linear path towards nirvana, and real people are currently stuck working Uber and Door Dash to try to survive while in the 1990's they could have had a steady job. I'm struck by this notion that in the 1990's the janitorial staff at Apple were Apple employees who got treated with respect, but now they are contractors working for a company Apple has hired. So things are great for the engineers at Apple but in the 90's success for those people also meant success for the janitors. But we have managed to break that off so those people no longer get to see the gains that others see. We are stratifying the world more. Things are not better for the average janitor.
  - bergenty 4y ago
    Things were never good for the average janitor. They are definitely less bad than they used to be however.
TremendousJudge 4y ago
>By most metrics we’re better off than the 90s except for people’s sentiment. And temperature
- worker_person 4y ago
  - sp332 4y ago
    We have wide surface temperature coverage from satellites since the early 1980's. All global readings show a clear warming trend.
    - TremendousJudge 4y ago
      I think that this "Heartland Institute" cited may be a biased source.
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    Is your argument here that average global temperature is not in fact increasing?
  - Analemma_ 4y ago
    > The Heartland Institute is an American conservative and libertarian public policy think tank known for its rejection of both the scientific consensus on climate change and the negative health impacts of smoking. Founded in 1984, it worked with tobacco company Philip Morris throughout the 1990s to attempt to discredit the health risks of secondhand smoke and lobby against smoking bans. Since the 2000s, the Heartland Institute has been a leading promoter of climate change denial. Utterly junk source.
foobiekr 4y ago
The issue Is that for every single topic, there’s a cadre of crazies who deny that it is true or that it was ever an issue or claim that it’s made up or claim some conspiracy theory or yada yada. The refuse of the media to actually shoot those people down means if they can’t actually report on anything. Climate and anti-pollution in particular.
- Bloating 4y ago
  the news isn't about reporting facts
hinkley 4y ago
GenZ: Your parents are fucked up because they were kids in the 1980's. Today we worry about fucking up the environment so bad that all humans and higher mammals die out. In 1985 we were worried about sterilizing the entire planet with nuclear fallout. If you think things are dire now, search Spotify for 70's, 80's, and 90's songs about how the world was going to end. Maybe every crisis is a little worse than the last, but they aren't out of the blue transitions from an idyllic age. That's just a bunch of pastoralism from older people who have suppressed a bunch of memories (memories that still affect their behavior in various situations). Worrying is a rite of passage. You don't steward something until you realize it needs stewardship, and that it's soon going to be your turn to contribute. That epiphany can be traumatizing.
- goldenkey 4y ago
  Hey bud, didn't we just talk about not being grim? Please sit down on this melted glacier and have a Coca-Cola (tm) with the drowning polar bears. As Santa once said, "Life tastes good!"
  - hinkley 4y ago
    In the immortal words of Ron Finley: Plant some shit.
- mhh__ 4y ago
  One probably coincidental thing is that the move to margarine and other more "sustainable" foods happened roughly in the same period as books and thoughts like "the limits to growth" came about.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago

“There is 2.24 million more square kilometers of forestland than 35 years ago” How can this be true when our rate of deforestation is accelerating? The state of deforestation is nothing to celebrate, it’s horrific as far as I understand it. “By most metrics we’re better off than the 90’s” Except for economic metrics and people’s material well being?? This sounds like Steven Pinker stuff.

nightshift1 4y ago
Indeed. The rich countries are gaining forestland but it is only because everything is imported now. Including the deforestation. https://ourworldindata.org/deforestation https://ourworldindata.org/deforestation Same thing for the acid rain. https://www.britannica.com/story/what-happened-to-acid-rain https://www.britannica.com/story/what-happened-to-acid-rain
- goldenkey 4y ago
googlryas 4y ago
> How can this be true when our rate of deforestation is accelerating Where are you getting this from? In any case, tropical deforestation may be accelerating, but perhaps temperate reforestation is accelerating even faster.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  Well it seems we were both wrong. According to this link the rate of deforestation is decreasing. But still, they say there is less forest now than there was in 1990. "Since 1990, it is estimated that 420 million hectares of forest have been lost through conversion to other land uses, although the rate of deforestation has decreased over the past three decades. Between 2015 and 2020, the rate of deforestation was estimated at 10 million hectares per year, down from 16 million hectares per year in the 1990s. The area of primary forest worldwide has decreased by over 80 million hectares since 1990." https://www.fao.org/state-of-forests/en/ https://www.fao.org/state-of-forests/en/
- hinkley 4y ago
  Based on our current understanding of fungally dominated soils, restoring temperate forests will do far more per acre for atmospheric carbon levels than restoring the same acreage of tropical rainforest. Which we also need to do soon because the longer you wait, the wider the band around the Tropics where fungally dominated ecosystems cannot thrive. Not that we shouldn't have people working to slow tropical deforestation, but we can't and shouldn't put all our eggs in that basket.
BurningFrog 4y ago
You don't strike me as convinable by facts, but for those who are: https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better https://ourworldindata.org/much-better-awful-can-be-better https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty https://ourworldindata.org/extreme-poverty
- goldenkey 4y ago
  The only facts I will accept are Cat Facts provided in a court room operating under Bird Law.
- SequoiaHope 4y ago
  Actually I just didn't share data because I forgot the name of the author who has best spoken to this critique, but I dug him up and it's Jason Hickel. He responded directly to Steven Pinker's rosy optimism about the world, in particular pointing out that our bar for what is extreme poverty is a made up number that is too low. If you use a more reasonable measure for extreme poverty, the situation looks a little different. It has improved in some areas and expanded in others. Notably, people like Pinker use their argument to say basically that capitalism is good. But Hickel points out that most of the gains were in China, where the economic system that led to all this growth was a very mixed system of capitalism combined with heavy state control. So under no circumstances can we conclude that free market capitalism is the main driver of reductions in extreme poverty. https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-poverty https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-...
  - blackoil 4y ago
    India, Indonesia, Vietnam and other have also seen massive reduction in extreme poverty after adapting a capitalistic market system. All of them are different socially and politically but the free market impact is real.
  - BurningFrog 4y ago
    I was giving data backing the statement "By most metrics we’re better off than the 90’s". Didn't mention capitalism. Then you change the topic to talking about how it's not proven that capitalism is good. It's not interesting to be on this side of such a discussion.
SequoiaHope 4y ago
Replying to myself since I can no longer edit, but with so many questions I finally dug up the author who I was trying to think of as a source to go against this kind of rosy picture of the status quo. It's Jason Hickel and he has written a critique of Steven Pinker's optimism. https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-poverty https://www.jasonhickel.org/blog/2019/2/3/pinker-and-global-... Where Pinker looks at some arbitrarily defined numbers to decide that extreme poverty has gone down, and capitalism is the reason, Hickel criticizes those poverty numbers for being artificially low due to a poor selection of the poverty line, and points out that most of the reduction in poverty happened in china, where the system Steven Pinker argues for is not being used. Finally anyone who is paying attention to the economics of people in just the USA for example must know that real wages in the USA have been stagnant for the average person since 1980, while living costs continue to rise. So the average person is NOT better off than they were in the 1990's, they are actually worse off. People like Bill Gates LOVE Steve Pinker because Pinker provides an excuse to say the status quo is fine and everything is great. But in reality time is not a linear path towards nirvana, and real people are currently stuck working Uber and Door Dash to try to survive while in the 1990's they could have had a steady job. I'm struck by this notion that in the 1990's the janitorial staff at Apple were Apple employees who got treated with respect, but now they are contractors working for a company Apple has hired. So things are great for the engineers at Apple but in the 90's success for those people also meant success for the janitors. But we have managed to break that off so those people no longer get to see the gains that others see. We are stratifying the world more. Things are not better for the average janitor.
- bergenty 4y ago
  Things were never good for the average janitor. They are definitely less bad than they used to be however.

TremendousJudge 4y ago

>By most metrics we’re better off than the 90s except for people’s sentiment. And temperature

worker_person 4y ago
- sp332 4y ago
  We have wide surface temperature coverage from satellites since the early 1980's. All global readings show a clear warming trend.
  - TremendousJudge 4y ago
    I think that this "Heartland Institute" cited may be a biased source.
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  Is your argument here that average global temperature is not in fact increasing?
- Analemma_ 4y ago
  > The Heartland Institute is an American conservative and libertarian public policy think tank known for its rejection of both the scientific consensus on climate change and the negative health impacts of smoking. Founded in 1984, it worked with tobacco company Philip Morris throughout the 1990s to attempt to discredit the health risks of secondhand smoke and lobby against smoking bans. Since the 2000s, the Heartland Institute has been a leading promoter of climate change denial. Utterly junk source.

foobiekr 4y ago

The issue Is that for every single topic, there’s a cadre of crazies who deny that it is true or that it was ever an issue or claim that it’s made up or claim some conspiracy theory or yada yada. The refuse of the media to actually shoot those people down means if they can’t actually report on anything. Climate and anti-pollution in particular.

Bloating 4y ago
the news isn't about reporting facts

hinkley 4y ago

GenZ: Your parents are fucked up because they were kids in the 1980's. Today we worry about fucking up the environment so bad that all humans and higher mammals die out. In 1985 we were worried about sterilizing the entire planet with nuclear fallout. If you think things are dire now, search Spotify for 70's, 80's, and 90's songs about how the world was going to end. Maybe every crisis is a little worse than the last, but they aren't out of the blue transitions from an idyllic age. That's just a bunch of pastoralism from older people who have suppressed a bunch of memories (memories that still affect their behavior in various situations). Worrying is a rite of passage. You don't steward something until you realize it needs stewardship, and that it's soon going to be your turn to contribute. That epiphany can be traumatizing.

goldenkey 4y ago
Hey bud, didn't we just talk about not being grim? Please sit down on this melted glacier and have a Coca-Cola (tm) with the drowning polar bears. As Santa once said, "Life tastes good!"
- hinkley 4y ago
  In the immortal words of Ron Finley: Plant some shit.
mhh__ 4y ago
One probably coincidental thing is that the move to margarine and other more "sustainable" foods happened roughly in the same period as books and thoughts like "the limits to growth" came about.