4 ms·

As a non-computer "real" engineer - what is the actual designation between these two terms in the CS world? In my experience the title "Engineer" is a legally

As a non-computer "real" engineer - what is the actual designation between these two terms in the CS world? In my experience the title "Engineer" is a legally protected one, and those using it without proper licensure can suffer penalty - take a look at the Strongtowns case for one example. But those in the programming world seem to be able to throw around the title on a whim. Any discussion/history/insight would be appreciated.

jddil 4y ago
In 2022 anyone that writes code is an engineer. Words change meaning.
EddySchauHai 4y ago
Very little protection of the term in software across most countries. You can become a chartered engineer from software but you still need your undergrad/masters. Wether software development is an engineering discipline or an art is left to the reader (strong arguments for both sides and no one wins). There are definitely fields in software development that feel more like engineering than others, for example aerospace software. However without requiring an engineering degree/status to get those roles you can’t really tell from the job term what is and isn’t engineering-ish
goodpoint 4y ago
In some countries it's not legally protected... unfortunately. I saw it used for people with an amount of learning comparable to a real engineering degree.
jddil 4y ago
It's a guild system in some countries to try and retain high wages. Engineer means, "Clever builder", how does that not describe software engineering?
- johnthescott 4y ago
  or "engine" + "eer". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineer https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineer
philote 4y ago
It's a very fuzzy distinction now, but for me I feel a software engineer is someone with enough experience and low-level knowledge to be able to understand and design complex systems, troubleshoot them, and have a good understanding of the tools they use and why. Whereas a software developer more so just writes code. They make simple systems but don't design bigger, more complex ones. They may use cloud technologies and other systems to help scale their projects, but won't have a great understanding of the tools they're using. They also likely won't know what metrics to gather, or which to look at to see where issues may lie, or which to use to design new features.
psyc 4y ago
In the US it's a title and nothing more. And an HR one, not a legal or otherwise formal one. An HR title. Don't listen to anybody who tries to tell you that programmers with 'engineer' in their title are more 'rigorous' than people with 'developer' in their title. That is pure retroactive continuity and hasn't yet been widely backed up by anything. Now, someone with a degree called Software Engineering may well have had a somewhat different education than someone with a Computer Science degree. That's another matter, and whether the former makes them an engineer in the protected sense depends on where they are and exactly what the degree program was.
loufe 4y ago
I'm in the same boat and have often wondered the same. I feel like it's just not persecuted.
jackthetab 4y ago
In the USA, the term "engineer" isn't protected; the term "Professional Engineer" is. To be a PE requires you to first take the Engineer-In-Training test (making you an EIT if you pass) which is generally taken as part of your graduation process but need not be. After apprenticing, you can then take the PE test. These are state-sanctioned terms. Being a "Professional Engineer" carries various legal obligations; being an "engineer" does not. I looked up "Strongtowns case"[1]. Notice they open with "A small group of professional engineers are using the licensing process to stifle calls for reform...". They _mean_ "Professional Engineers" (state-sanctioned engineers who have licensing rules) but are unaware, or are being disingenuous about, that it is a legal term and refer to them as "professional engineers" (engineers who aren't amateurs). This is the equivalent of saying "The American Medical Association is using licensing to restrict changes in medical reforms..." as opposed to, presumably, allowing untrained non-medical personnel to make medical reforms. Also notice, that the author dropped the term "professional" as the article went on. In the software world, there is no distinction AFAICT between "software engineer" (SWE), "developer", or "programmer"; they are just terms used to make the coder feel important. A "senior SWE/developer/programmer" is anyone with a minimum _three_ years of experience, regardless of schooling. IME, most software "engineers" know nothing of basic engineering practices: documenting research, testing assumptions, learning how to write correct documentation, proper project development, etc. If they can sling code, they're an "engineer". Mind you, SW engineering isn't nearly as robust as Civil, Mechanical, or Electrical (and other licensed) engineering disciplines but it's been around for less than a century whereas some of the other engineering disciplines date back well over a century, if not millennia. I've heard, but have no sources, that companies that employ "software engineers" have lobbied local (read: state) regulatory bodies to exclude "software engineers" as it would make hiring them more difficult (reducing the available pool), subject them to legal regulations and hence liabilities, and cost the companies more money in salaries and legal obligations. Mind you, I've got nothing against people going to boot camps or being self-taught in software development. I'm self-taught. But I also have a BSEE degree, did some master's work in EE, was an EIT (not that big of a deal, but still), and have worked in the field as an engineer but not a PE. I do my best to keep up on standards practices and principles (not necessarily the framework du jour). I have earned the title "senior" by doing this stuff, professionally, for 30+ years. puts on their asbestos suit [1] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/5/23/lawsuit#:~:text=Book%20EventsAbout-,Strong%20Towns%20Has%20Filed%20a%20Lawsuit%20Against%20the%20Minnesota%20Board,Strong%20Towns%20for%20its%20advocacy https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/5/23/lawsuit#:~:tex....

jddil 4y ago

In 2022 anyone that writes code is an engineer. Words change meaning.

EddySchauHai 4y ago

Very little protection of the term in software across most countries. You can become a chartered engineer from software but you still need your undergrad/masters. Wether software development is an engineering discipline or an art is left to the reader (strong arguments for both sides and no one wins). There are definitely fields in software development that feel more like engineering than others, for example aerospace software. However without requiring an engineering degree/status to get those roles you can’t really tell from the job term what is and isn’t engineering-ish

goodpoint 4y ago

In some countries it's not legally protected... unfortunately. I saw it used for people with an amount of learning comparable to a real engineering degree.

jddil 4y ago

It's a guild system in some countries to try and retain high wages. Engineer means, "Clever builder", how does that not describe software engineering?

johnthescott 4y ago
or "engine" + "eer". https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineer https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/engineer

philote 4y ago

It's a very fuzzy distinction now, but for me I feel a software engineer is someone with enough experience and low-level knowledge to be able to understand and design complex systems, troubleshoot them, and have a good understanding of the tools they use and why. Whereas a software developer more so just writes code. They make simple systems but don't design bigger, more complex ones. They may use cloud technologies and other systems to help scale their projects, but won't have a great understanding of the tools they're using. They also likely won't know what metrics to gather, or which to look at to see where issues may lie, or which to use to design new features.

psyc 4y ago

In the US it's a title and nothing more. And an HR one, not a legal or otherwise formal one. An HR title. Don't listen to anybody who tries to tell you that programmers with 'engineer' in their title are more 'rigorous' than people with 'developer' in their title. That is pure retroactive continuity and hasn't yet been widely backed up by anything. Now, someone with a degree called Software Engineering may well have had a somewhat different education than someone with a Computer Science degree. That's another matter, and whether the former makes them an engineer in the protected sense depends on where they are and exactly what the degree program was.

loufe 4y ago

I'm in the same boat and have often wondered the same. I feel like it's just not persecuted.

jackthetab 4y ago

In the USA, the term "engineer" isn't protected; the term "Professional Engineer" is. To be a PE requires you to first take the Engineer-In-Training test (making you an EIT if you pass) which is generally taken as part of your graduation process but need not be. After apprenticing, you can then take the PE test. These are state-sanctioned terms. Being a "Professional Engineer" carries various legal obligations; being an "engineer" does not. I looked up "Strongtowns case"[1]. Notice they open with "A small group of professional engineers are using the licensing process to stifle calls for reform...". They _mean_ "Professional Engineers" (state-sanctioned engineers who have licensing rules) but are unaware, or are being disingenuous about, that it is a legal term and refer to them as "professional engineers" (engineers who aren't amateurs). This is the equivalent of saying "The American Medical Association is using licensing to restrict changes in medical reforms..." as opposed to, presumably, allowing untrained non-medical personnel to make medical reforms. Also notice, that the author dropped the term "professional" as the article went on. In the software world, there is no distinction AFAICT between "software engineer" (SWE), "developer", or "programmer"; they are just terms used to make the coder feel important. A "senior SWE/developer/programmer" is anyone with a minimum _three_ years of experience, regardless of schooling. IME, most software "engineers" know nothing of basic engineering practices: documenting research, testing assumptions, learning how to write correct documentation, proper project development, etc. If they can sling code, they're an "engineer". Mind you, SW engineering isn't nearly as robust as Civil, Mechanical, or Electrical (and other licensed) engineering disciplines but it's been around for less than a century whereas some of the other engineering disciplines date back well over a century, if not millennia. I've heard, but have no sources, that companies that employ "software engineers" have lobbied local (read: state) regulatory bodies to exclude "software engineers" as it would make hiring them more difficult (reducing the available pool), subject them to legal regulations and hence liabilities, and cost the companies more money in salaries and legal obligations. Mind you, I've got nothing against people going to boot camps or being self-taught in software development. I'm self-taught. But I also have a BSEE degree, did some master's work in EE, was an EIT (not that big of a deal, but still), and have worked in the field as an engineer but not a PE. I do my best to keep up on standards practices and principles (not necessarily the framework du jour). I have earned the title "senior" by doing this stuff, professionally, for 30+ years. puts on their asbestos suit [1] https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/5/23/lawsuit#:~:text=Book%20EventsAbout-,Strong%20Towns%20Has%20Filed%20a%20Lawsuit%20Against%20the%20Minnesota%20Board,Strong%20Towns%20for%20its%20advocacy https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/5/23/lawsuit#:~:tex....