4 ms·

Workers rights are a disincentive to SV funding, as well as expansion by existing companies (at least until the company is already huge). Cost of starting up a

by buro9 4y ago

Workers rights are a disincentive to SV funding, as well as expansion by existing companies (at least until the company is already huge). Cost of starting up and taxation (as you have a lot of risks, why increase them by increasing costs so early). I don't agree with these (if everyone had rights like France it would be a non-issue) but that's what I've seen in discussions about opening offices in France, hiring in France, setting up in France. Edit: Sigh, downvotes... but perhaps people don't realise that things like unions are essentially mandatory in France when the employer has more than 50 employees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#France or that the standard corp tax is one of the highest in Europe https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-rates-europe-2022/ https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-rates-europe-2022/ . It's not that high tax rates alone will be a disincentive - it isn't, Germany is higher - but combine high tax rates with a lot of employee rights and now try to imagine the modern SV startup that leverages gaps in legislation thriving in this... it doesn't.

seibelj 4y ago
France is the last country in the West I would hire in. A decent place to conduct business but the worst place to hire labor.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  Could you elaborate? I know very little about this aspect of French commerce / work.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    Very difficult to fire a FTE. Imagine you take a risk on someone and they don't work out. It's extremely expensive and time consuming to exit that poor performer. This isn't even mentioning the huge bureaucratic state that is tuned towards large enterprises and not small business - be prepared for arbitrary and conflicting regulations and taxes once the proper government agencies learn of your existence.
    - raverbashing 4y ago
      That's why employment contracts allow for an experience period (typically between 3mo and 6mo) "Last place you'd hire in the West" I can assure there are plenty worse places.
      - yardstick 4y ago
        Where is worse?
        raverbashing 4y ago
        South America, as an example
        yardstick 4y ago
        Interesting. I don’t consider South and Central America to have western countries. Normally Western refers to countries with majority European people. Ie North America, West and Central Europe, Australia, NZ.
    - piva00 4y ago
      It's also pretty hard to fire a FTE here in Sweden so not sure how that alone would justify anything given that Swedish tech sector punches well above the country's size.
      - seibelj 4y ago
        I don't know as much about Sweden but I've heard their government is more efficient and less contradictory than France.
        piva00 4y ago
        That would cancel strong labour rights as a main issue. Government bureaucracy I completely understand, even more when I have personal experience with such involving the Brazilian government. Strong labour rights being considered a culprit is a red herring, a very useful one to fuck workers with.
hnhg 4y ago
There's also the matter of how funding is made available and the appetite for risk. From what I've seen and been told, the situation in Europe (including the UK) is vastly different to that in the US, where risk-taking is almost seen as a virtue. Meanwhile in Europe, a lot of money comes from family generational wealth and they only want sure bets. For example, friends in the UK have had more luck raising from US VCs than UK ones.
- nly 4y ago
  In the UK it's just an ingrained cultural difference. There's a natural skew in the UK for public businesses to focus on making profits and paying dividends, both of which don't help growth. Meanwhile, many British entrepreneurs are happy with a "lifestyle business" that let them lead an upper middle class life on their own terms. When you look at crowdfunding platforms for tech startup you won't see any ambitions to aggressively take over the world like you do in American pitches. Most people here don't trust or invest in the stock market at all and instead the moderately well off seem to prefer investing in property, which produces income in retirement.
benjaminwootton 4y ago
Have seen this a lot too. Almost every business I’ve worked with wouldn’t want to touch France or Germany due to employment rights.
ETH_start 4y ago
Just to clarify, "workers rights" in this context refers to laws that mandate minimum benefits/contractual-protections. Classically, such laws would not be considered to be a bestowment of rights. On the contrary, they would be viewed as limitations on contract liberty: a case of denying workers certain options, ostensibly to protect them.
mytailorisrich 4y ago
Regarding unions, I believe that there are much more union members in the UK than in France. A "comite d'entreprise" is not the same as an union, either. An issue (if you see it that way) in France is that the right to strike is written in the constitution and extremely liberal. Basically if you have a work-related problem and you find just one colleague to agree with you then you have a constitutional right to strike. On the other hand, in the UK a strike is only legal is organised by a trade union after a formal ballot. Beyond that the UK is much more business-friendly with much less red tape... The French administration is kafkaesque.

by buro9 4y ago

seibelj 4y ago

France is the last country in the West I would hire in. A decent place to conduct business but the worst place to hire labor.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
Could you elaborate? I know very little about this aspect of French commerce / work.
- seibelj 4y ago
  Very difficult to fire a FTE. Imagine you take a risk on someone and they don't work out. It's extremely expensive and time consuming to exit that poor performer. This isn't even mentioning the huge bureaucratic state that is tuned towards large enterprises and not small business - be prepared for arbitrary and conflicting regulations and taxes once the proper government agencies learn of your existence.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    That's why employment contracts allow for an experience period (typically between 3mo and 6mo) "Last place you'd hire in the West" I can assure there are plenty worse places.
    - yardstick 4y ago
      Where is worse?
      - raverbashing 4y ago
        South America, as an example
        yardstick 4y ago
        Interesting. I don’t consider South and Central America to have western countries. Normally Western refers to countries with majority European people. Ie North America, West and Central Europe, Australia, NZ.
  - piva00 4y ago
    It's also pretty hard to fire a FTE here in Sweden so not sure how that alone would justify anything given that Swedish tech sector punches well above the country's size.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      I don't know as much about Sweden but I've heard their government is more efficient and less contradictory than France.
      - piva00 4y ago
        That would cancel strong labour rights as a main issue. Government bureaucracy I completely understand, even more when I have personal experience with such involving the Brazilian government. Strong labour rights being considered a culprit is a red herring, a very useful one to fuck workers with.

hnhg 4y ago

There's also the matter of how funding is made available and the appetite for risk. From what I've seen and been told, the situation in Europe (including the UK) is vastly different to that in the US, where risk-taking is almost seen as a virtue. Meanwhile in Europe, a lot of money comes from family generational wealth and they only want sure bets. For example, friends in the UK have had more luck raising from US VCs than UK ones.

nly 4y ago
In the UK it's just an ingrained cultural difference. There's a natural skew in the UK for public businesses to focus on making profits and paying dividends, both of which don't help growth. Meanwhile, many British entrepreneurs are happy with a "lifestyle business" that let them lead an upper middle class life on their own terms. When you look at crowdfunding platforms for tech startup you won't see any ambitions to aggressively take over the world like you do in American pitches. Most people here don't trust or invest in the stock market at all and instead the moderately well off seem to prefer investing in property, which produces income in retirement.

benjaminwootton 4y ago

Have seen this a lot too. Almost every business I’ve worked with wouldn’t want to touch France or Germany due to employment rights.

ETH_start 4y ago

Just to clarify, "workers rights" in this context refers to laws that mandate minimum benefits/contractual-protections. Classically, such laws would not be considered to be a bestowment of rights. On the contrary, they would be viewed as limitations on contract liberty: a case of denying workers certain options, ostensibly to protect them.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Regarding unions, I believe that there are much more union members in the UK than in France. A "comite d'entreprise" is not the same as an union, either. An issue (if you see it that way) in France is that the right to strike is written in the constitution and extremely liberal. Basically if you have a work-related problem and you find just one colleague to agree with you then you have a constitutional right to strike. On the other hand, in the UK a strike is only legal is organised by a trade union after a formal ballot. Beyond that the UK is much more business-friendly with much less red tape... The French administration is kafkaesque.