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"almost five times larger than France and Sweden" - the UK population is almost 7 times that of Sweden, so that's quite flattering. But what are the reasons for

"almost five times larger than France and Sweden" - the UK population is almost 7 times that of Sweden, so that's quite flattering. But what are the reasons for France's relatively small tech industry?

Bayart 4y ago
Less access to capital, engineers still considered glorified blue-collars.
- mytailorisrich 4y ago
  In France "engineers" are considered the top of the pile, they have a higher status than in the UK, not least because they traditionally stem from "Grandes Ecoles". Edit: interesting that the person I'm replying to wrote "considered glorified blue collar", which I interpret as status, and that those who are replying to me focus on pay. In the UK a plumber (blue collar) or train driver can make more than a software engineer who is university educated and enjoys a higher status, for instance. Salaries in tech/software are not that different in UK and France. Perhaps London salaries in hot startups are outliers. I don't think there is a difference in the way devs/programmers are considered on either side of the channel. The key is not that but rather the company/industry. A tech company will consider them a key resource, an old industrial company maybe not...
  - goethes_kind 4y ago
    I think he means programmers.
  - weddpros 4y ago
    "engineers" are considered the top of the pile: as long as they're not talking salaries... I switched to not working for french companies for that very reason. Engineer, loads of experience, low salary compared to the UK or US. I know you could put a price on the "french social privilege", but I didn't benefit from it the least bit (no kids, working) so I was better off without it.
  - baazaa 4y ago
    Even talking about mechanical engineers, they're paid poorly. The average is like $40-50k USD atm. There's a reason inequality is lower in these countries than the US, because high-skilled workers are paid much less.
  - Bayart 4y ago
    > In France "engineers" are considered the top of the pile, they have a higher status than in the UK, not least because they traditionally stem from "Grandes Ecoles". Very few people come from the Grandes Écoles, that's the point of them. There are far more engineering schools than that. And even then they don't necessarily have exceedingly high status and pay. In France status means being management/exec. You're technical ? Well, get fucked, you're from a lower caste.
    - mytailorisrich 4y ago
      Hence why I wrote 'traditionally' but even being an engineer from an engineering school is high status in France. You seem to conflate your experience and generally the pecking order in a company with something specifically French whereas it's not.
    - yamrzou 4y ago
      > In France status means being management/exec. You're technical ? Well, get fucked, you're from a lower caste. That was my impression as well, working as an engineer in France. Is it different in the UK or other European countries?
buro9 4y ago
Workers rights are a disincentive to SV funding, as well as expansion by existing companies (at least until the company is already huge). Cost of starting up and taxation (as you have a lot of risks, why increase them by increasing costs so early). I don't agree with these (if everyone had rights like France it would be a non-issue) but that's what I've seen in discussions about opening offices in France, hiring in France, setting up in France. Edit: Sigh, downvotes... but perhaps people don't realise that things like unions are essentially mandatory in France when the employer has more than 50 employees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#France or that the standard corp tax is one of the highest in Europe https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-rates-europe-2022/ https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-rates-europe-2022/ . It's not that high tax rates alone will be a disincentive - it isn't, Germany is higher - but combine high tax rates with a lot of employee rights and now try to imagine the modern SV startup that leverages gaps in legislation thriving in this... it doesn't.
- seibelj 4y ago
  France is the last country in the West I would hire in. A decent place to conduct business but the worst place to hire labor.
  - CoastalCoder 4y ago
    Could you elaborate? I know very little about this aspect of French commerce / work.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      Very difficult to fire a FTE. Imagine you take a risk on someone and they don't work out. It's extremely expensive and time consuming to exit that poor performer. This isn't even mentioning the huge bureaucratic state that is tuned towards large enterprises and not small business - be prepared for arbitrary and conflicting regulations and taxes once the proper government agencies learn of your existence.
      - 4y ago
matesz 4y ago
Does language barrier matter here?
mytailorisrich 4y ago
Article also says twice the size of Germany's and than valuation was 'only' 450 billion in 2018. So my guess is that this is because London is both a major financial centre and a fintech hub.
gsatic 4y ago
More english speakers than french speakers in the world?
mrtksn 4y ago
It's not just France but Europe in general doesn't have much foot into high growth businesses that are colloquially called "Tech". UK is a superpower in Europe in that regard, always was and will continue to be. The reasons are a never ending debate, everyone(including me) likes to explain it from their own world view. If you are libertarian you will probably say because it's the big government, high taxes, workers rights, unions etc. but I personally don't like these explanations because they fail to explain why the distribution is not homogeneous within those legislative regions. So in reality, it's not that US and UK dominate the "tech" but it's SV and London. For whatever reason it is, you cannot do some tricks and have SV in Detroit and London in the Balkans.
- timthorn 4y ago
  But it isn't just London - the UK has substantial tech clusters in Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, Cambridge etc. I'd posit that the BBC Computer Literacy Project, Acorn and Sinclair were central to seeding the right skills base in enough of the population to build a sustainable industry.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Of course, so does Europe has tech clusters but all the difference comes from the concentrated one and the continental Europe doesn't have one. Europe does have a lot of tech companies and startups, especially EU is a rich place with a lot of innovation and high tech business happening. What EU lacks is unicorns.
- hnhg 4y ago
  I cannot take seriously the comparison between SV and London. Their tech cultures aren't even remotely the same, and never will be.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    What comparison?
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

Bayart 4y ago

Less access to capital, engineers still considered glorified blue-collars.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
In France "engineers" are considered the top of the pile, they have a higher status than in the UK, not least because they traditionally stem from "Grandes Ecoles". Edit: interesting that the person I'm replying to wrote "considered glorified blue collar", which I interpret as status, and that those who are replying to me focus on pay. In the UK a plumber (blue collar) or train driver can make more than a software engineer who is university educated and enjoys a higher status, for instance. Salaries in tech/software are not that different in UK and France. Perhaps London salaries in hot startups are outliers. I don't think there is a difference in the way devs/programmers are considered on either side of the channel. The key is not that but rather the company/industry. A tech company will consider them a key resource, an old industrial company maybe not...
- goethes_kind 4y ago
  I think he means programmers.
- weddpros 4y ago
  "engineers" are considered the top of the pile: as long as they're not talking salaries... I switched to not working for french companies for that very reason. Engineer, loads of experience, low salary compared to the UK or US. I know you could put a price on the "french social privilege", but I didn't benefit from it the least bit (no kids, working) so I was better off without it.
- baazaa 4y ago
  Even talking about mechanical engineers, they're paid poorly. The average is like $40-50k USD atm. There's a reason inequality is lower in these countries than the US, because high-skilled workers are paid much less.
- Bayart 4y ago
  > In France "engineers" are considered the top of the pile, they have a higher status than in the UK, not least because they traditionally stem from "Grandes Ecoles". Very few people come from the Grandes Écoles, that's the point of them. There are far more engineering schools than that. And even then they don't necessarily have exceedingly high status and pay. In France status means being management/exec. You're technical ? Well, get fucked, you're from a lower caste.
  - mytailorisrich 4y ago
    Hence why I wrote 'traditionally' but even being an engineer from an engineering school is high status in France. You seem to conflate your experience and generally the pecking order in a company with something specifically French whereas it's not.
  - yamrzou 4y ago
    > In France status means being management/exec. You're technical ? Well, get fucked, you're from a lower caste. That was my impression as well, working as an engineer in France. Is it different in the UK or other European countries?

buro9 4y ago

Workers rights are a disincentive to SV funding, as well as expansion by existing companies (at least until the company is already huge). Cost of starting up and taxation (as you have a lot of risks, why increase them by increasing costs so early). I don't agree with these (if everyone had rights like France it would be a non-issue) but that's what I've seen in discussions about opening offices in France, hiring in France, setting up in France. Edit: Sigh, downvotes... but perhaps people don't realise that things like unions are essentially mandatory in France when the employer has more than 50 employees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#France https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_council#France or that the standard corp tax is one of the highest in Europe https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-rates-europe-2022/ https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-tax-rates-europe-2022/ . It's not that high tax rates alone will be a disincentive - it isn't, Germany is higher - but combine high tax rates with a lot of employee rights and now try to imagine the modern SV startup that leverages gaps in legislation thriving in this... it doesn't.

seibelj 4y ago
France is the last country in the West I would hire in. A decent place to conduct business but the worst place to hire labor.
- CoastalCoder 4y ago
  Could you elaborate? I know very little about this aspect of French commerce / work.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    Very difficult to fire a FTE. Imagine you take a risk on someone and they don't work out. It's extremely expensive and time consuming to exit that poor performer. This isn't even mentioning the huge bureaucratic state that is tuned towards large enterprises and not small business - be prepared for arbitrary and conflicting regulations and taxes once the proper government agencies learn of your existence.
    - 4y ago

matesz 4y ago

Does language barrier matter here?

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Article also says twice the size of Germany's and than valuation was 'only' 450 billion in 2018. So my guess is that this is because London is both a major financial centre and a fintech hub.

gsatic 4y ago

More english speakers than french speakers in the world?

mrtksn 4y ago

It's not just France but Europe in general doesn't have much foot into high growth businesses that are colloquially called "Tech". UK is a superpower in Europe in that regard, always was and will continue to be. The reasons are a never ending debate, everyone(including me) likes to explain it from their own world view. If you are libertarian you will probably say because it's the big government, high taxes, workers rights, unions etc. but I personally don't like these explanations because they fail to explain why the distribution is not homogeneous within those legislative regions. So in reality, it's not that US and UK dominate the "tech" but it's SV and London. For whatever reason it is, you cannot do some tricks and have SV in Detroit and London in the Balkans.

timthorn 4y ago
But it isn't just London - the UK has substantial tech clusters in Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, Cambridge etc. I'd posit that the BBC Computer Literacy Project, Acorn and Sinclair were central to seeding the right skills base in enough of the population to build a sustainable industry.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Of course, so does Europe has tech clusters but all the difference comes from the concentrated one and the continental Europe doesn't have one. Europe does have a lot of tech companies and startups, especially EU is a rich place with a lot of innovation and high tech business happening. What EU lacks is unicorns.
hnhg 4y ago
I cannot take seriously the comparison between SV and London. Their tech cultures aren't even remotely the same, and never will be.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  What comparison?
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]