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I've heard (anecdotally) that the attention span of all the younger users has taken a dramatic shift south. Educators and employers are noticing they cannot ke

I've heard (anecdotally) that the attention span of all the younger users has taken a dramatic shift south. Educators and employers are noticing they cannot keep students / new employees engaged. Makes me wonder what damage is happening, long-term, with all these short bursts of dopamine that TikTok gives it users.

disgu 4y ago
Was there ever a time in recorded history where this was not claimed?
- ismaildonmez 4y ago
  Both your statement and OP’s statement can be true at the same time.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- fallingknife 4y ago
  The whole "younger generation bad" thing, yeah. But the specific claim of loss of attention span caused by internet / social media, no. And I think there is something there, because I don't just notice in in the younger generation, I notice it in myself. e.g. I find it very much harder to sit down and read a book than I used to.
- ajot 4y ago
  Youngsters and modern times have been condemned since times immemorial https://redd.it/7btv14 https://redd.it/7btv14 https://xkcd.com/1227/ https://xkcd.com/1227/
klodolph 4y ago
People have been saying that for centuries or longer. Kids these days have shorter attention spans. People said it about millennials, about gen-x, about baby boomers. There’s a record of people complaining that kids are ruined by their reliance on writing things on paper, rather than slate. There’s a record of Socrates complaining that the written word is ruining people’s memory. The record exists because Plato wrote it down.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Doesn't mean it's not true. There's an argument that given the world's population today we should be churning out geniuses (of the caliber of Newton or Einstein or Beethoven etc,.) all the time now, but the fact we're not suggests there's something about the social environment we grow up in that strongly discourages the level of sustained commitment to a particular specialty neccessary for genius to develop. Having so many easily accessible forms of distraction on hand may well be part of the problem.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    > Doesn't mean it's not true. It means we should be asking for more than anecdotes. > There's an argument that given the world's population today we should be churning out geniuses (of the caliber of Newton or Einstein or Beethoven etc,.) all the time now, but the fact we're not […] We definitely are churning out geniuses of this caliber. The bar for being a famous genius is higher.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      But what made the likes of Newton/Einstein/Beethoven etc. stand out is how much they achieved given the limitations of the times they lived in. The reason I picked those three is all of them were known for being able to devote huge amounts of dedicated time to their specialty (Newton especially, who from memory developed most of the ideas in Principia while under effective lockdown during a smallpox outbreak. But unlike those of us under lockdown in recent years, there were no electronic gadgets distracting him either.)
      - mliker 4y ago
        We have geniuses like the inventor of CRISPR, penicillin, deep learning, etc.
        wizofaus 4y ago
        Fairly sure Fleming didn't have anything like the distractions around now when he developed penicillin nearly 100 years ago! The other examples seem to be very much group efforts, and I'd be impressed if the average guy or girl on the street could name the key figures involved. It's possible we've simply reached a point where all the breakthroughs that realistically could be achieved by individuals have already been made, or that in the world of art there's simply too many artists able to readily share their creations with the world for individuals to stand out to the degree great artists of the past did. But I honestly don't know - it just seems that with so many more of us with access to resources and levels of education prior generations could only dream of we should be able to achieve a lot more than we have been.
askafriend 4y ago
Why default to blaming the students/employees? The educational system and employers have a responsibility to be engaging and enriching if they want interest and passion back from their students/employees. I'm not saying there's no problem with overconsumption of cheap media. But I think we're too quick to jump to blaming individuals. We can just as much flip the question around and ask what educators and employers are doing to keep students engaged and feeling motivated by what they do.
- cardamomo 4y ago
  David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" comes to mind as a well written critique of the kinds of jobs you seem to be describing. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-bullshit-jobs https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-bullsh...
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    Sure. But there are also plenty of very necessary jobs which are not permanently engaging. Airline pilots tend to do love aviating, but spend most of their flight standing by in case the autopilot goes awry. Most medical doctors don't have a massive catastrophe happening around them all of the time. Artisan bakers still have to knead dough. All in all, most work generally is boring rather than fulfilling.
    - askafriend 4y ago
      I think in all your examples aspects of the work may indeed be incredibly boring, but that doesn't mean it's not ultimately rewarding, fulfilling, or motivating. At least in the case of pilots, doctors, and bakers.
  - pqwEfkvjs 4y ago
    Thanks for sharing this. I just spent last 10 hours reading it, but I need to stop to get some sleep now.
- ivanche 4y ago
judge2020 4y ago
From this article[0] it seems the claims about attention span come from an unreliable source. Given ‘kids these days’ have been cited as being disrespectful to their elders for thousands of years[1], I wouldn’t be surprised if the attention span is actually different between today’s Zoomers and a teenage boomer/millennial/X. 0: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-38896790 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-38896790 1: https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.aav5916 https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.aav5916
bobsil1 4y ago
They probably said this about paperbacks.
odessacubbage 4y ago
kids are in school 9 hours a day, 5 days a week for 12+ years. if we are not using that time to facilitate developing their attention spans then the blame lies solely on the educators. if kids aren't focusing in school, first and foremost look at the content and ask if any of it is actually engaging or meaningful. in my experience we largely dedicate them to shuffling around paperwork for which their greatest possible reward is a gold star and... more paperwork. we rob kids of agency or any sense of purpose and then snipe at them for not being sufficiently engaged in imp math 4.31, section 12, worksheet 29 the rudolph steiner/waldorf model is kooky in a lot of ways but one thing i do believe they got incredibly right is that they constantly have kids making actual things with their hands in the real world and all the technical concepts are buried within a grander narrative. also they let kids actually go outside.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Or maybe the concept of developing an attention span is nonsense
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
I think we are in for big problems. I graduated from college in 2017 and my adult classmates couldn't even pay attention in class. If adults are hooked then children stand absolutely no chance.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  You're assuming they could in 1987
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
    I'm assuming it was easier.
- thow-58d4e8b 4y ago
  The most chilling is that this also inflicts the military. Lieutenant Colonel Heffington on West Point, published in 2017: > Academic standards are also nonexistent. I believe this trend started 10 years ago, and it has continued to get worse. West Point has stated standards for academic expectations and performance, but they're ignored. Cadets routinely fail multiple classes, only to be thrown back into the mix. The faculty is expected to somehow drag them through the academic program until they manage to earn a passing grade. As a result, professors have lost hope and faith in the entire Academic Board process And this is supposed to be the most prestigious institution in the armed forces, the people who will have nuclear weapons in their hands...Chilling. That's how the West ends up with leaders who do not know how to lead, reporters who do not report, officers who are clueless about real war, and diplomats who are incapable of being diplomatic
  - Balgair 4y ago
    Nit: Nukes are under the Air Force. So the Air Force Academy would be the one to worry about. And they are having similar problems to West Point. But yes, any nuclear 'go/no-go' would go through the joint chiefs and would include all branches.
  - BeFlatXIII 4y ago
safety1st 4y ago
I've (also anecdotally) observed this as an employer and in social settings. It's almost as if there's a correlation between being a heavy Tiktok user (who are predominantly pretty young) and having trouble focusing. It feels like a more advanced case of what happens to me when I use my phone a lot for basically any reason.
kick_in_the_dor 4y ago
I feel like I started this way (in middle school and high school), but grew out of it over time. Basically had a video game addiction and could not for the life of me long-term-goal anything outside of school. I think eventually I found that these short-term sweets are quite unfulfilling in the long-term, and now enjoy less immediately-stimulating hobbies like fitness, reading, learning, etc. Hopefully people can grow out of this as they age.
upupandup 4y ago
think this is the new "opium" war that China engages in, our minds. Reduce the young generation to become emotional, depressed from dopamine fatigue, reduce their attention span and they have zero chance of rebellion. hmmm yes but its a different type of addiction. In video games you still had to pay attention and at worst you'd develop some type of muscle memory or familiarity with a level but you were still focused on the game for hours. TikTok and other short term media seems to have disastrous consequences for the young developing minds. Your setting up your brain to focus in short bursts and it immediately expects a dopamine hit. I think we are already seeing signs of this amongst the Z generation, mental illness and well-being is reportedly lowest out of all demographics, and its puzzling why policy makers aren't taking note of this. If I wanted to make the young generation of a hostile nation weak, ineffective, this is how I would do it. Create something that appeals to them, and turn the into dopamine fiends. It's no different than creating addicts that relies on other substances but because nothing is ingested, this type of neural behavioral programming is not seen as urgent. I'm glad I don't have kids, I would be so stressed out about them in today's world. It's a completely different environment than the one we grew up with.
seydor 4y ago
I have heard that (anecdotally) every 20 years or so
fendy3002 4y ago
Just accept that the world is moving as/to a much faster iterations. Nowadays most companies are trying to be as efficient as they can (JIT model, etc), leaving less room to relax (Amazon of course). In software sector, current ci/cd makes deployment and releases very fast and more often, as opposed to monthly/quarterly patches in the past. Newer technologies makes development faster and more efficient. There are more contents being published than humanity can consume at a time. Messages are instant and distance is almost meaningless in face of internet. At the same time media providers are researching the best way to increase engagement.

disgu 4y ago

Was there ever a time in recorded history where this was not claimed?

ismaildonmez 4y ago
Both your statement and OP’s statement can be true at the same time.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
fallingknife 4y ago
The whole "younger generation bad" thing, yeah. But the specific claim of loss of attention span caused by internet / social media, no. And I think there is something there, because I don't just notice in in the younger generation, I notice it in myself. e.g. I find it very much harder to sit down and read a book than I used to.
ajot 4y ago
Youngsters and modern times have been condemned since times immemorial https://redd.it/7btv14 https://redd.it/7btv14 https://xkcd.com/1227/ https://xkcd.com/1227/

klodolph 4y ago

People have been saying that for centuries or longer. Kids these days have shorter attention spans. People said it about millennials, about gen-x, about baby boomers. There’s a record of people complaining that kids are ruined by their reliance on writing things on paper, rather than slate. There’s a record of Socrates complaining that the written word is ruining people’s memory. The record exists because Plato wrote it down.

wizofaus 4y ago
Doesn't mean it's not true. There's an argument that given the world's population today we should be churning out geniuses (of the caliber of Newton or Einstein or Beethoven etc,.) all the time now, but the fact we're not suggests there's something about the social environment we grow up in that strongly discourages the level of sustained commitment to a particular specialty neccessary for genius to develop. Having so many easily accessible forms of distraction on hand may well be part of the problem.
- klodolph 4y ago
  > Doesn't mean it's not true. It means we should be asking for more than anecdotes. > There's an argument that given the world's population today we should be churning out geniuses (of the caliber of Newton or Einstein or Beethoven etc,.) all the time now, but the fact we're not […] We definitely are churning out geniuses of this caliber. The bar for being a famous genius is higher.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    But what made the likes of Newton/Einstein/Beethoven etc. stand out is how much they achieved given the limitations of the times they lived in. The reason I picked those three is all of them were known for being able to devote huge amounts of dedicated time to their specialty (Newton especially, who from memory developed most of the ideas in Principia while under effective lockdown during a smallpox outbreak. But unlike those of us under lockdown in recent years, there were no electronic gadgets distracting him either.)
    - mliker 4y ago
      We have geniuses like the inventor of CRISPR, penicillin, deep learning, etc.
      - wizofaus 4y ago
        Fairly sure Fleming didn't have anything like the distractions around now when he developed penicillin nearly 100 years ago! The other examples seem to be very much group efforts, and I'd be impressed if the average guy or girl on the street could name the key figures involved. It's possible we've simply reached a point where all the breakthroughs that realistically could be achieved by individuals have already been made, or that in the world of art there's simply too many artists able to readily share their creations with the world for individuals to stand out to the degree great artists of the past did. But I honestly don't know - it just seems that with so many more of us with access to resources and levels of education prior generations could only dream of we should be able to achieve a lot more than we have been.

askafriend 4y ago

Why default to blaming the students/employees? The educational system and employers have a responsibility to be engaging and enriching if they want interest and passion back from their students/employees. I'm not saying there's no problem with overconsumption of cheap media. But I think we're too quick to jump to blaming individuals. We can just as much flip the question around and ask what educators and employers are doing to keep students engaged and feeling motivated by what they do.

cardamomo 4y ago
David Graeber's "Bullshit Jobs" comes to mind as a well written critique of the kinds of jobs you seem to be describing. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-bullshit-jobs https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/david-graeber-bullsh...
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  Sure. But there are also plenty of very necessary jobs which are not permanently engaging. Airline pilots tend to do love aviating, but spend most of their flight standing by in case the autopilot goes awry. Most medical doctors don't have a massive catastrophe happening around them all of the time. Artisan bakers still have to knead dough. All in all, most work generally is boring rather than fulfilling.
  - askafriend 4y ago
    I think in all your examples aspects of the work may indeed be incredibly boring, but that doesn't mean it's not ultimately rewarding, fulfilling, or motivating. At least in the case of pilots, doctors, and bakers.
- pqwEfkvjs 4y ago
  Thanks for sharing this. I just spent last 10 hours reading it, but I need to stop to get some sleep now.
ivanche 4y ago

judge2020 4y ago

From this article[0] it seems the claims about attention span come from an unreliable source. Given ‘kids these days’ have been cited as being disrespectful to their elders for thousands of years[1], I wouldn’t be surprised if the attention span is actually different between today’s Zoomers and a teenage boomer/millennial/X. 0: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-38896790 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-38896790 1: https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.aav5916 https://doi.org/10.1126/sciadv.aav5916

bobsil1 4y ago

They probably said this about paperbacks.

odessacubbage 4y ago

kids are in school 9 hours a day, 5 days a week for 12+ years. if we are not using that time to facilitate developing their attention spans then the blame lies solely on the educators. if kids aren't focusing in school, first and foremost look at the content and ask if any of it is actually engaging or meaningful. in my experience we largely dedicate them to shuffling around paperwork for which their greatest possible reward is a gold star and... more paperwork. we rob kids of agency or any sense of purpose and then snipe at them for not being sufficiently engaged in imp math 4.31, section 12, worksheet 29 the rudolph steiner/waldorf model is kooky in a lot of ways but one thing i do believe they got incredibly right is that they constantly have kids making actual things with their hands in the real world and all the technical concepts are buried within a grander narrative. also they let kids actually go outside.

spywaregorilla 4y ago
Or maybe the concept of developing an attention span is nonsense

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

I think we are in for big problems. I graduated from college in 2017 and my adult classmates couldn't even pay attention in class. If adults are hooked then children stand absolutely no chance.

spywaregorilla 4y ago
You're assuming they could in 1987
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
  I'm assuming it was easier.
thow-58d4e8b 4y ago
The most chilling is that this also inflicts the military. Lieutenant Colonel Heffington on West Point, published in 2017: > Academic standards are also nonexistent. I believe this trend started 10 years ago, and it has continued to get worse. West Point has stated standards for academic expectations and performance, but they're ignored. Cadets routinely fail multiple classes, only to be thrown back into the mix. The faculty is expected to somehow drag them through the academic program until they manage to earn a passing grade. As a result, professors have lost hope and faith in the entire Academic Board process And this is supposed to be the most prestigious institution in the armed forces, the people who will have nuclear weapons in their hands...Chilling. That's how the West ends up with leaders who do not know how to lead, reporters who do not report, officers who are clueless about real war, and diplomats who are incapable of being diplomatic
- Balgair 4y ago
  Nit: Nukes are under the Air Force. So the Air Force Academy would be the one to worry about. And they are having similar problems to West Point. But yes, any nuclear 'go/no-go' would go through the joint chiefs and would include all branches.
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago

safety1st 4y ago

I've (also anecdotally) observed this as an employer and in social settings. It's almost as if there's a correlation between being a heavy Tiktok user (who are predominantly pretty young) and having trouble focusing. It feels like a more advanced case of what happens to me when I use my phone a lot for basically any reason.

kick_in_the_dor 4y ago

I feel like I started this way (in middle school and high school), but grew out of it over time. Basically had a video game addiction and could not for the life of me long-term-goal anything outside of school. I think eventually I found that these short-term sweets are quite unfulfilling in the long-term, and now enjoy less immediately-stimulating hobbies like fitness, reading, learning, etc. Hopefully people can grow out of this as they age.

upupandup 4y ago

think this is the new "opium" war that China engages in, our minds. Reduce the young generation to become emotional, depressed from dopamine fatigue, reduce their attention span and they have zero chance of rebellion. hmmm yes but its a different type of addiction. In video games you still had to pay attention and at worst you'd develop some type of muscle memory or familiarity with a level but you were still focused on the game for hours. TikTok and other short term media seems to have disastrous consequences for the young developing minds. Your setting up your brain to focus in short bursts and it immediately expects a dopamine hit. I think we are already seeing signs of this amongst the Z generation, mental illness and well-being is reportedly lowest out of all demographics, and its puzzling why policy makers aren't taking note of this. If I wanted to make the young generation of a hostile nation weak, ineffective, this is how I would do it. Create something that appeals to them, and turn the into dopamine fiends. It's no different than creating addicts that relies on other substances but because nothing is ingested, this type of neural behavioral programming is not seen as urgent. I'm glad I don't have kids, I would be so stressed out about them in today's world. It's a completely different environment than the one we grew up with.

seydor 4y ago

I have heard that (anecdotally) every 20 years or so

fendy3002 4y ago

Just accept that the world is moving as/to a much faster iterations. Nowadays most companies are trying to be as efficient as they can (JIT model, etc), leaving less room to relax (Amazon of course). In software sector, current ci/cd makes deployment and releases very fast and more often, as opposed to monthly/quarterly patches in the past. Newer technologies makes development faster and more efficient. There are more contents being published than humanity can consume at a time. Messages are instant and distance is almost meaningless in face of internet. At the same time media providers are researching the best way to increase engagement.