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Instead of building fast native application delivery and sandboxing we're taking the longer way around and reinventing OSes inside a document (!) browser. Can'

Instead of building fast native application delivery and sandboxing we're taking the longer way around and reinventing OSes inside a document (!) browser. Can't say that it makes me happy.

modeless 4y ago
Blame the OS vendors. There's no money in making an OS secure enough to run arbitrary portable code from a decentralized marketplace in a sandbox. All the money is in monopolizing app distribution, forcing use of their proprietary SDKs and APIs, and deleting any app they feel like "for your protection" (and also some other reasons but don't mind those...).
- nyanpasu64 4y ago
  Blame web developers. There's no money in making web pages simple enough to be delivered to the client as fully functional hypertext without running arbitrary code. All the money is in stalking users across the app, forcing them to watch ads and navigate paywalls, and denying service to any ad blocker they feel like "for their survival" (and also some other reasons).
  - afavour 4y ago
    Oh, come on. Don't pretend like there are zero web apps with useful functionality. Or would you prefer Google Maps shut down and we all go back to Yahoo Maps where we click an arrow button that reloads the entire page with a new map tile displayed?
    - tjoff 4y ago
      Oh yes. Not the slightest hyperbole. That would be amazing. What we have now really is a tragedy of the commons situation. edit: Google maps (or equivalent) is a true game-changer that has a lot of value and one of the very few websites with actual value from javascript. But, we could just use Google Earth as a separate application for it. Just as we did in the early days when google maps on the web was a poor fit. Very small price to pay.
      - afavour 4y ago
        But Google Earth was a terrible app with inconsistent UI! To my mind it’s one of the posterchildren of why making crossplatform native apps often ends up a total mess. I feel like when everyone says “this should be a native app” their imagined app is absolutely flawless and integrates seamlessly on every OS. But reality has rarely matched that ideal.
        tjoff 4y ago
        It was still orders of magnitude better than the web version so not sure what the argument is? Today I'd use applications such as Slack and Spotify as posterchilds for bad applications. That they are built with web tech is not a coincidence.
      - jakelazaroff 4y ago
        Let’s take Google Docs as an example. A word processor where you can collaboratively edit a file with someone simply by sharing a link, without requiring anyone to install an application. How do you do this without the web and JavaScript?
        tjoff 4y ago
        You don't. And that is not a problem worth sacrificing the web for.
        jakelazaroff 4y ago
        That experience is one of the most empowering things we’ve ever invented. To me, “sacrificing the web” would be giving that up for your vision of purity.
        tjoff 4y ago
        Is it that cumbersome to install an application?
  - modeless 4y ago
    This is a total non sequitur in the context of the question implied by the top level comment, which is about why native app platforms haven't fixed some crucial issues that the web solved a long time ago.
afavour 4y ago
Another way of looking at it is that we're inventing an app sandbox at the web browser level. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of web apps either but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of introspection on the part of native app proponents. They're faster, they consume less memory, yet overwhelmingly people choose to make apps using web technologies. Why isn't anyone interested in exploring why native failed to offer what these people wanted?
- croes 4y ago
  Because many developers don't care about the user and UX. They care only about themselves It's easier for them to develop and easier to put trackers inside to monetize their work. Bloated pages, crappy performance, battery draining? Who cares.
  - afavour 4y ago
    I don’t think this qualifies as introspection. You’re genuinely saying the only reason no one makes cross platform native apps is because the developers are lazy? You can’t think of anything else that turns people away?
    - croes 4y ago
      There is no real cross platform, either the apps are native and take advantage of all the benefits or they are cross-platform and only represent what is possible on all systems, usually with poor performance and more space consumption. For years I've been hearing about better frameworks and better tools for web development, but then when I open a website on the go, there are very often issues with rendering ot performance not to mention that a simple website consumes a large portion of my data bandwidth. This also happens with native apps but more often with web apps.
  - jakelazaroff 4y ago
    Other than the web, how can I make apps that… - are instantly usable just by following a link - people can share with others, without needing to install anything, by just sending a link - work equally well on all major mobile, desktop and tablet platforms - don't require any sort of app store or gatekeeper to distribute or use This isn't developers not caring about the user. These are huge UX advantages, and there's no way to get them all other than building on the web.
ojkelly 4y ago
It hasn’t been a document browser for at least 2 decades though. The web and browsers like many languages, are not something any one person or group can authoritatively prescribe. The W3C follows the browsers, not the other way around.

Instead of building fast native application delivery and sandboxing we're taking the longer way around and reinventing OSes inside a document (!) browser. Can't say that it makes me happy.

modeless 4y ago

Blame the OS vendors. There's no money in making an OS secure enough to run arbitrary portable code from a decentralized marketplace in a sandbox. All the money is in monopolizing app distribution, forcing use of their proprietary SDKs and APIs, and deleting any app they feel like "for your protection" (and also some other reasons but don't mind those...).

nyanpasu64 4y ago
Blame web developers. There's no money in making web pages simple enough to be delivered to the client as fully functional hypertext without running arbitrary code. All the money is in stalking users across the app, forcing them to watch ads and navigate paywalls, and denying service to any ad blocker they feel like "for their survival" (and also some other reasons).
- afavour 4y ago
  Oh, come on. Don't pretend like there are zero web apps with useful functionality. Or would you prefer Google Maps shut down and we all go back to Yahoo Maps where we click an arrow button that reloads the entire page with a new map tile displayed?
  - tjoff 4y ago
    Oh yes. Not the slightest hyperbole. That would be amazing. What we have now really is a tragedy of the commons situation. edit: Google maps (or equivalent) is a true game-changer that has a lot of value and one of the very few websites with actual value from javascript. But, we could just use Google Earth as a separate application for it. Just as we did in the early days when google maps on the web was a poor fit. Very small price to pay.
    - afavour 4y ago
      But Google Earth was a terrible app with inconsistent UI! To my mind it’s one of the posterchildren of why making crossplatform native apps often ends up a total mess. I feel like when everyone says “this should be a native app” their imagined app is absolutely flawless and integrates seamlessly on every OS. But reality has rarely matched that ideal.
      - tjoff 4y ago
        It was still orders of magnitude better than the web version so not sure what the argument is? Today I'd use applications such as Slack and Spotify as posterchilds for bad applications. That they are built with web tech is not a coincidence.
    - jakelazaroff 4y ago
      Let’s take Google Docs as an example. A word processor where you can collaboratively edit a file with someone simply by sharing a link, without requiring anyone to install an application. How do you do this without the web and JavaScript?
      - tjoff 4y ago
        You don't. And that is not a problem worth sacrificing the web for.
        jakelazaroff 4y ago
        That experience is one of the most empowering things we’ve ever invented. To me, “sacrificing the web” would be giving that up for your vision of purity.
        tjoff 4y ago
        Is it that cumbersome to install an application?
- modeless 4y ago
  This is a total non sequitur in the context of the question implied by the top level comment, which is about why native app platforms haven't fixed some crucial issues that the web solved a long time ago.

afavour 4y ago

Another way of looking at it is that we're inventing an app sandbox at the web browser level. I'm not a huge fan of a lot of web apps either but there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of introspection on the part of native app proponents. They're faster, they consume less memory, yet overwhelmingly people choose to make apps using web technologies. Why isn't anyone interested in exploring why native failed to offer what these people wanted?

croes 4y ago
Because many developers don't care about the user and UX. They care only about themselves It's easier for them to develop and easier to put trackers inside to monetize their work. Bloated pages, crappy performance, battery draining? Who cares.
- afavour 4y ago
  I don’t think this qualifies as introspection. You’re genuinely saying the only reason no one makes cross platform native apps is because the developers are lazy? You can’t think of anything else that turns people away?
  - croes 4y ago
    There is no real cross platform, either the apps are native and take advantage of all the benefits or they are cross-platform and only represent what is possible on all systems, usually with poor performance and more space consumption. For years I've been hearing about better frameworks and better tools for web development, but then when I open a website on the go, there are very often issues with rendering ot performance not to mention that a simple website consumes a large portion of my data bandwidth. This also happens with native apps but more often with web apps.
- jakelazaroff 4y ago
  Other than the web, how can I make apps that… - are instantly usable just by following a link - people can share with others, without needing to install anything, by just sending a link - work equally well on all major mobile, desktop and tablet platforms - don't require any sort of app store or gatekeeper to distribute or use This isn't developers not caring about the user. These are huge UX advantages, and there's no way to get them all other than building on the web.

ojkelly 4y ago

It hasn’t been a document browser for at least 2 decades though. The web and browsers like many languages, are not something any one person or group can authoritatively prescribe. The W3C follows the browsers, not the other way around.