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Ok, I'll rephrase. I'd choose most any Western democracy over a Communist/Socialist government any day of the week. I'm not making any excuses for any country

Ok, I'll rephrase. I'd choose most any Western democracy over a Communist/Socialist government any day of the week. I'm not making any excuses for any country. A crime is a crime regardless. The GP likened the US to Russia and I to an extent, disagree. There are fundamental differences in worldview, value for democracy and freedom, respect for individual rights, rule of law, the right to protest and criticize the government, freedom of the press etc between those two nations and between Western democracies and communist/socialist countries. I come from one of the latter and live in the US now so I have first hand experience to compare.

FpUser 4y ago
>"I come from one of the latter and live in the US now so I have first hand experience to compare." Same here. I was born in the USSR and came to Canada some 30 years ago. I very much prefer it here ;) My point was not about treatment of their own citizens by any particular country. It was how one country treats the others. From that point of view the victims might see the US in much worse light then say Russia. And the same victims might still want to immigrate to the US because they'll be better off in regards for life standard.
- theonething 4y ago
  If we're discussing how one country treats another, let's look at how Russia is treating Ukraine. When I compare that to the the US's invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan for example, I see fundamental differences. Regardless of whether one believes they were justifiable, the nature of the invasions and occupation are quite different compared to Russia's current invasion of Ukraine. Some of these include - the intentional and systematic targeting of civilian cities and other public places - war crimes including rape, murder, running over civilians with tanks. - the invading military's efforts (or lack thereof) to better the occupied countries' people and government through setting up medical, education, construction and other programs to benefit the society. I'm sure the US has committed 1 and 2, but I would assert that the scale and quality is quite different from what Russia is doing now in Ukraine. And in many of the cases, US military courts held perpetrators of crimes accountable. Again, I'm not arguing for the justification of the invasions. I'm saying the difference in the invasions and subsequent occupations point to fundamental differences between western democracies and communist/socialist countries. > they'll be better off in regards for life standard. Life standard usually means economic standard. I agree many people want to come to the US for that. I'd also say that is not the only reason. Some of things I listed above (e.g. freedom of speech, free society) are strong motivators. P.S. And I'm not trying to make this personal by picking on the country you're from. I'm from a country that has committed great atrocities and crimes against humanity as well. Again, GP likened the US to Russia and that is what I'm responding to.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    >"I'm sure the US has committed 1 and 2, but I would assert that the scale and quality is quite different from what Russia is doing now in Ukraine." Talking about scale - number of dead in Iraq for example would dwarf that of Ukraine. I am not sure about "quality" but I find it repulsive to even talk this way about mass murder. >" Some of things I listed above (e.g. freedom of speech, free society) are strong motivators." I agree with that. >"And I'm not trying to make this personal by picking on the country you're from." I have no sympathy to that rabid dog Putin and to what he and his lapdogs are doing. Fuck him. Besides it's been more than 30 years. I pretty much feel Canadian ;)
    - theonething 4y ago
      > Talking about scale - number of dead in Iraq for example would dwarf that of Ukraine. Edit: I was referring to the scale of war crimes committed. See this quote: > I'm sure the US has committed 1 and 2, but I would assert that the scale and quality 1 and 2 as listed in my comment are categories of war crimes. Russia in five months has committed war crimes at a scale that eclipses the US history of modern warfare. This does not include Russia's past history of documented war crimes. I meant quality not in the sense of high or low quality of war crimes, but the nature and severity of them. I think a better word in fact is severity. E.g. instances of severe atrocities including rape, murder, torture, targeting of civilians, etc.[1] Anyways, maybe I'm biased or brainwashed or whatever, but I see a qualitative difference between how the US conducts international affairs and the way Russia, China, North Korea, the Taliban, etc. do. I don't have the data to back it up, just my personal observations and experience. I trust the US and other western democracies way more than the other countries I listed. The former is nowhere near perfect, but also no where near as bad as these other governments/regimes. [1] This is severe. https://news.yahoo.com/footage-appears-show-russian-soldier-213707535.html https://news.yahoo.com/footage-appears-show-russian-soldier-... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710451/Rape-Russian-weapon-war-Ukraine-tells-boy-assaulted-mother.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710451/Rape-Russi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian...

FpUser 4y ago

>"I come from one of the latter and live in the US now so I have first hand experience to compare." Same here. I was born in the USSR and came to Canada some 30 years ago. I very much prefer it here ;) My point was not about treatment of their own citizens by any particular country. It was how one country treats the others. From that point of view the victims might see the US in much worse light then say Russia. And the same victims might still want to immigrate to the US because they'll be better off in regards for life standard.

theonething 4y ago
If we're discussing how one country treats another, let's look at how Russia is treating Ukraine. When I compare that to the the US's invasion and occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan for example, I see fundamental differences. Regardless of whether one believes they were justifiable, the nature of the invasions and occupation are quite different compared to Russia's current invasion of Ukraine. Some of these include - the intentional and systematic targeting of civilian cities and other public places - war crimes including rape, murder, running over civilians with tanks. - the invading military's efforts (or lack thereof) to better the occupied countries' people and government through setting up medical, education, construction and other programs to benefit the society. I'm sure the US has committed 1 and 2, but I would assert that the scale and quality is quite different from what Russia is doing now in Ukraine. And in many of the cases, US military courts held perpetrators of crimes accountable. Again, I'm not arguing for the justification of the invasions. I'm saying the difference in the invasions and subsequent occupations point to fundamental differences between western democracies and communist/socialist countries. > they'll be better off in regards for life standard. Life standard usually means economic standard. I agree many people want to come to the US for that. I'd also say that is not the only reason. Some of things I listed above (e.g. freedom of speech, free society) are strong motivators. P.S. And I'm not trying to make this personal by picking on the country you're from. I'm from a country that has committed great atrocities and crimes against humanity as well. Again, GP likened the US to Russia and that is what I'm responding to.
- FpUser 4y ago
  >"I'm sure the US has committed 1 and 2, but I would assert that the scale and quality is quite different from what Russia is doing now in Ukraine." Talking about scale - number of dead in Iraq for example would dwarf that of Ukraine. I am not sure about "quality" but I find it repulsive to even talk this way about mass murder. >" Some of things I listed above (e.g. freedom of speech, free society) are strong motivators." I agree with that. >"And I'm not trying to make this personal by picking on the country you're from." I have no sympathy to that rabid dog Putin and to what he and his lapdogs are doing. Fuck him. Besides it's been more than 30 years. I pretty much feel Canadian ;)
  - theonething 4y ago
    > Talking about scale - number of dead in Iraq for example would dwarf that of Ukraine. Edit: I was referring to the scale of war crimes committed. See this quote: > I'm sure the US has committed 1 and 2, but I would assert that the scale and quality 1 and 2 as listed in my comment are categories of war crimes. Russia in five months has committed war crimes at a scale that eclipses the US history of modern warfare. This does not include Russia's past history of documented war crimes. I meant quality not in the sense of high or low quality of war crimes, but the nature and severity of them. I think a better word in fact is severity. E.g. instances of severe atrocities including rape, murder, torture, targeting of civilians, etc.[1] Anyways, maybe I'm biased or brainwashed or whatever, but I see a qualitative difference between how the US conducts international affairs and the way Russia, China, North Korea, the Taliban, etc. do. I don't have the data to back it up, just my personal observations and experience. I trust the US and other western democracies way more than the other countries I listed. The former is nowhere near perfect, but also no where near as bad as these other governments/regimes. [1] This is severe. https://news.yahoo.com/footage-appears-show-russian-soldier-213707535.html https://news.yahoo.com/footage-appears-show-russian-soldier-... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710451/Rape-Russian-weapon-war-Ukraine-tells-boy-assaulted-mother.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10710451/Rape-Russi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_2022_Russian...