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If you are going to offer "unlimited vacation days" as part of compensation you better be prepared to honor it. I tell people to take at LEAST 4 weeks a year b

If you are going to offer "unlimited vacation days" as part of compensation you better be prepared to honor it. I tell people to take at LEAST 4 weeks a year because 2-3 weeks is what you'd typically get at any other job.

peterkelly 4y ago
In Australia, 4 weeks is the legal minimum for any full-time employee, regardless of the job.
shadowgovt 4y ago
I hate to say it (because I've worked at more companies that have it than don't), but "unlimited vacation days" is a trap. In practice, it turns too many vacations into a per-event negotiation with one's boss instead of "I have days accumulated, this is an average work week, I'm out" being a simple process. I prefer a setup where the company has employees accumulate vacation days but also has a flexible policy about "going into debt" so that if something significant comes up, it's easy to deal with.
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  Yeah, having employees decide how much vacation to take based on their own personal guilt and their boss' discretion is an uncomfortable dynamic.
  - muttled 4y ago
    Especially if you have a moody boss where you find yourself tip-toeing around them until they're in a good mood to put in the request.
- jejeyyy77 4y ago
  100% agree, it is BS the way it has played out. Which is why default to 4 weeks - this is a bare minimum. Anything on top (i.e taking personal days off every few Fridays, etc.) is the additional benefit.
- Rayhem 4y ago
  I'm also quite fond of the "forced shutdown days" idea. Shutdown the entire place the week of Christmas and the 4th of July (or whatever holidays, except a skeleton crew to handle emergencies and compensate them with time elsewhere) on top of giving out 15-20 days of discretionary time. That way everyone gets a guilt-free break twice a year and you don't have a hundred thousand emails to come back to.
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    This is de facto like what the week around Christmas is at many companies. No one expects any work to get done, no one schedules meetings, and no one really audits vacation days being taken either.
- monkpit 4y ago
  “Unlimited” PTO is an accounting trick. If your company has a system where you earn PTO, then the PTO each worker has earned counts as money owed on the books. A quick hack to make your numbers look better is to eliminate that whole PTO thing. If it’s “unlimited” then there’s no fixed number on the books that you owe.
  - seanhunter 4y ago
    Possibly naive question, but why does accrued PTO count as money owed? You were going to have to pay salary if the person worked. If they leave/are exited, you were going to pay them notice which presumably is more than the amount of PTO they would have accrued.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      I don't know the history of how it came to be, but the literal answer is "It counts as such because states regulate it." https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/pto-payout-laws... This also means that if you're a multi-state company, you're under different legal regulations for how PTO works and multi-state compliance increases the cost of offering that perk in the first place.
    - monkpit 4y ago
      I think it’s at least in part because it’s owed as cash (in some US states) when an employee is fired/quits.
- bmitc 4y ago
  I used to hear this but after being at two companies with unlimited vacation, which were even poorly managed, the unlimited vacation was great. It was super easy to say you were going to be out certain days, and it was never an issue. It was great never having to worry about having enough days. Being back at a place with limited vacation feels stifling. It means I gotta weigh stuff like really wanting a Friday or two off to do something but then worrying about having enough vacation saved up or accrued for Christmas or whatever. In my opinion, the only way to do it “classically” is have employees immediately “accrue” something like 6 weeks vacation every year and prevent very little if no carry over. The only issue with that is the cash on hand requirement problem.

peterkelly 4y ago

In Australia, 4 weeks is the legal minimum for any full-time employee, regardless of the job.

shadowgovt 4y ago

I hate to say it (because I've worked at more companies that have it than don't), but "unlimited vacation days" is a trap. In practice, it turns too many vacations into a per-event negotiation with one's boss instead of "I have days accumulated, this is an average work week, I'm out" being a simple process. I prefer a setup where the company has employees accumulate vacation days but also has a flexible policy about "going into debt" so that if something significant comes up, it's easy to deal with.

wollsmoth 4y ago
Yeah, having employees decide how much vacation to take based on their own personal guilt and their boss' discretion is an uncomfortable dynamic.
- muttled 4y ago
  Especially if you have a moody boss where you find yourself tip-toeing around them until they're in a good mood to put in the request.
jejeyyy77 4y ago
100% agree, it is BS the way it has played out. Which is why default to 4 weeks - this is a bare minimum. Anything on top (i.e taking personal days off every few Fridays, etc.) is the additional benefit.
Rayhem 4y ago
I'm also quite fond of the "forced shutdown days" idea. Shutdown the entire place the week of Christmas and the 4th of July (or whatever holidays, except a skeleton crew to handle emergencies and compensate them with time elsewhere) on top of giving out 15-20 days of discretionary time. That way everyone gets a guilt-free break twice a year and you don't have a hundred thousand emails to come back to.
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  This is de facto like what the week around Christmas is at many companies. No one expects any work to get done, no one schedules meetings, and no one really audits vacation days being taken either.
monkpit 4y ago
“Unlimited” PTO is an accounting trick. If your company has a system where you earn PTO, then the PTO each worker has earned counts as money owed on the books. A quick hack to make your numbers look better is to eliminate that whole PTO thing. If it’s “unlimited” then there’s no fixed number on the books that you owe.
- seanhunter 4y ago
  Possibly naive question, but why does accrued PTO count as money owed? You were going to have to pay salary if the person worked. If they leave/are exited, you were going to pay them notice which presumably is more than the amount of PTO they would have accrued.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    I don't know the history of how it came to be, but the literal answer is "It counts as such because states regulate it." https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/pto-payout-laws-by-state/ https://www.patriotsoftware.com/blog/payroll/pto-payout-laws... This also means that if you're a multi-state company, you're under different legal regulations for how PTO works and multi-state compliance increases the cost of offering that perk in the first place.
  - monkpit 4y ago
    I think it’s at least in part because it’s owed as cash (in some US states) when an employee is fired/quits.
bmitc 4y ago
I used to hear this but after being at two companies with unlimited vacation, which were even poorly managed, the unlimited vacation was great. It was super easy to say you were going to be out certain days, and it was never an issue. It was great never having to worry about having enough days. Being back at a place with limited vacation feels stifling. It means I gotta weigh stuff like really wanting a Friday or two off to do something but then worrying about having enough vacation saved up or accrued for Christmas or whatever. In my opinion, the only way to do it “classically” is have employees immediately “accrue” something like 6 weeks vacation every year and prevent very little if no carry over. The only issue with that is the cash on hand requirement problem.