5 ms·

When I look at how figures like Donziger, Assange and Snowden are treated I cant help but think our society is a lot more like Russia than we think we are - dif

by pydry 4y ago

When I look at how figures like Donziger, Assange and Snowden are treated I cant help but think our society is a lot more like Russia than we think we are - differing mostly by a matter of degree, rather than principle. Furthermore, this is a geopolitical risk. If the west doesnt uphold the principles we purport to represent then our support dwindles and allies who were on the fence will fall against us.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Who's the "we" you speak of? The "we're barely any better than them" or "we're just like them but with better optics" sentiment you profess is one of the common ones to find around here. If you wanna play that dumb "zoom out until everything looks the same" game then all societies are like Russia. Would there even have been a media article written about this guy had this story been in Russia? The caveman were almost certainly treating the guy who rocked the boat worse than the guy who didn't. Every society plays favorites to some extent. There's a lot of noise in the data when it comes to how much due process these kinds of "inconvenient to the rulers" people get in modern democracies so any nation can be made to look like Russia depending on who you pick and choose. The lawyer in question looks like he really got unjustifiably screwed but equally "inconvenient to the people on top" people have been left relatively alone in the past.
- pydry 4y ago
  Perhaps they are, but we are still routinely told that ours is different - better, special, more principled, fairer, committed to democracy, human rights and freedom of expression. I think the West used to be better at putting these principles into action although it's true if never has been very consistent.
  - throwaway0a5e 4y ago
    > Perhaps they are, but we are still routinely told that ours is different - better, special, more principled, fairer, committed to democracy, human rights and freedom of expression. Who's we? Last I checked it was more or less a coin toss between "murka bad" and "murka bestest" depending on which filter bubble you happened to be in at the minute. Every society tells people that it is the best. I think pride based solely on group membership is a very bad thing at any scale beyond small groups but every organization from the smallest up to nations tries to foster that sentiment to varying extents so... >I think the West used to be better at putting these principles into action although it's true if never has been very consistent. I'm inclined to believe this but I'm also inclined to believe a lot more bad stuff was easier to sweep under the rug in the past so the error bars on any "it used to be better" observation are massive. Hearing about these things at all is a prerequisite to changing them.
  - b112 4y ago
    Used to be better?! There has been far more fairness in trials, in justice, than there ever has been. It is just with the internet, with cameras everywhere, you hear anout injustice more... even if it is less common.
- uniqueuid 4y ago
  I'm not sure your argument is intended to dismiss any differences between justice in societies. If it is: The rule of law, separation of powers and adherence to procedural rules can be assessed and are regularly assessed by organizations such as freedom house [1]. Sure, these assessments will have some bias, but it is possible to work towards a quasi-objective take. [1] https://freedomhouse.org/ https://freedomhouse.org/
jelly 4y ago
I understand it sucks to hear that people are mistreated, but at least you do hear about it.
- bcollaery 4y ago
  Not necessarily. There were secret trials and jailings of Australian whistleblowers (Witness J and K), and we only found out about them almost by accident. The government went after the lawyer in a way reminiscent of the guy in the article. Now that we know the Aussie government does this kind of thing, how many other cases are there that we don't know about? US black sites around the world? Everyone knows about Guantánamo, but how many others are there that don't make the news?
avidphantasm 4y ago
We in the US definitely live in a soft totalitarian system. Like totalitarianism but with heated leather seats if you can afford them.
- mxuribe 4y ago
  > ...totalitarianism but with heated leather seats... This is the first time i've heard this one! I have heard others too like "we live in handcuffs, pretty and fuzzy handcuffs, but handcuffs no less..." EDIT: I should have added that: i totally agree with you on the sentiment!
- glennvtx 4y ago
  As long as people recognize hierarchical governments and their claims to authority, this will always be the case.
theonething 4y ago
Given the choice, I'd still much rather live under the jurisdiction of the U.S. than Russia. The U.S. is far from perfect, but I'll choose her over Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, etc. any day.
- FpUser 4y ago
  There are other countries outside of those you've just mentioned. And committing comparatively less crimes against their own citizens while fucking up every other country they are in disagreement with is no excuse.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    Can you name one country that doesn't have warts?
    - TomSwirly 4y ago
      What's your point? "No country is perfect, so we can ignore even the grossest misconduct by the United States"?
  - theonething 4y ago
    Ok, I'll rephrase. I'd choose most any Western democracy over a Communist/Socialist government any day of the week. I'm not making any excuses for any country. A crime is a crime regardless. The GP likened the US to Russia and I to an extent, disagree. There are fundamental differences in worldview, value for democracy and freedom, respect for individual rights, rule of law, the right to protest and criticize the government, freedom of the press etc between those two nations and between Western democracies and communist/socialist countries. I come from one of the latter and live in the US now so I have first hand experience to compare.
    - FpUser 4y ago
      >"I come from one of the latter and live in the US now so I have first hand experience to compare." Same here. I was born in the USSR and came to Canada some 30 years ago. I very much prefer it here ;) My point was not about treatment of their own citizens by any particular country. It was how one country treats the others. From that point of view the victims might see the US in much worse light then say Russia. And the same victims might still want to immigrate to the US because they'll be better off in regards for life standard.
psi75 4y ago
When I look at how figures like Donziger, Assange and Snowden are treated I cant help but think our society is a lot more like Russia than we think we are - differing mostly by a matter of degree, rather than principle. Stalinism was economic totalitarianism with a goal and an exit strategy. Authoritarianism was supposed to be a phase; the system would moderate itself over time. The degree to which that would have actually happened, we don't know. External forces destroyed the Soviet Union, so all we can do is speculate, but I suspect that if it had been left alone, it'd have fixed a lot of its problems and be a decent place to live by now. The corporate system we have now is also economic totalitarianism. Financial interests decide where you can live, what jobs you can do, and what kind of reputation you have in the community. The issue here is that it's economic totalitarianism with no exit strategy. Neoliberalism insists that things have never been better (despite substantial evidence to the contrary) and there's no reason to exit from economic totalitarianism when we should, instead, "own nothing, have no privacy, and be happy".
- theonething 4y ago
  Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million non-combatant deaths, the majority of which were his own people. He purged society to keep his brand of communism pure. > External forces destroyed the Soviet Union The Soviet Union was stagnating from within. Moscow was losing control and the Baltic Republics, frustrated with the slow pace of reform, one by one seceded. I'm not sure how you're blaming that on external forces. > if it had been left alone, it'd have fixed a lot of its problems and be a decent place to live by now. Given the above, I highly doubt that. I'm a bit incredulous that you're defending Stalinism.
  - psi75 4y ago
    I didn't mean to "defend" Stalinism, insofar as the man himself was a paranoid, brutal dictator who did a lot of evil shit; I only meant to contrast it with our totalitarian global corporate capitalism, which is (if we're honest about the matter, and if we take a global view) just as bad. Stalin killed about ten million. Capitalism kills that number, mostly in the Global South, in less than a year.
- 4y ago
JTbane 4y ago
I don't know why you're being downvoted, but I agree, the more a whisleblower brings to light the more they are treated as a traitor.

by pydry 4y ago

When I look at how figures like Donziger, Assange and Snowden are treated I cant help but think our society is a lot more like Russia than we think we are - differing mostly by a matter of degree, rather than principle. Furthermore, this is a geopolitical risk. If the west doesnt uphold the principles we purport to represent then our support dwindles and allies who were on the fence will fall against us.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

Who's the "we" you speak of? The "we're barely any better than them" or "we're just like them but with better optics" sentiment you profess is one of the common ones to find around here. If you wanna play that dumb "zoom out until everything looks the same" game then all societies are like Russia. Would there even have been a media article written about this guy had this story been in Russia? The caveman were almost certainly treating the guy who rocked the boat worse than the guy who didn't. Every society plays favorites to some extent. There's a lot of noise in the data when it comes to how much due process these kinds of "inconvenient to the rulers" people get in modern democracies so any nation can be made to look like Russia depending on who you pick and choose. The lawyer in question looks like he really got unjustifiably screwed but equally "inconvenient to the people on top" people have been left relatively alone in the past.

pydry 4y ago
Perhaps they are, but we are still routinely told that ours is different - better, special, more principled, fairer, committed to democracy, human rights and freedom of expression. I think the West used to be better at putting these principles into action although it's true if never has been very consistent.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  > Perhaps they are, but we are still routinely told that ours is different - better, special, more principled, fairer, committed to democracy, human rights and freedom of expression. Who's we? Last I checked it was more or less a coin toss between "murka bad" and "murka bestest" depending on which filter bubble you happened to be in at the minute. Every society tells people that it is the best. I think pride based solely on group membership is a very bad thing at any scale beyond small groups but every organization from the smallest up to nations tries to foster that sentiment to varying extents so... >I think the West used to be better at putting these principles into action although it's true if never has been very consistent. I'm inclined to believe this but I'm also inclined to believe a lot more bad stuff was easier to sweep under the rug in the past so the error bars on any "it used to be better" observation are massive. Hearing about these things at all is a prerequisite to changing them.
- b112 4y ago
  Used to be better?! There has been far more fairness in trials, in justice, than there ever has been. It is just with the internet, with cameras everywhere, you hear anout injustice more... even if it is less common.
uniqueuid 4y ago
I'm not sure your argument is intended to dismiss any differences between justice in societies. If it is: The rule of law, separation of powers and adherence to procedural rules can be assessed and are regularly assessed by organizations such as freedom house [1]. Sure, these assessments will have some bias, but it is possible to work towards a quasi-objective take. [1] https://freedomhouse.org/ https://freedomhouse.org/

jelly 4y ago

I understand it sucks to hear that people are mistreated, but at least you do hear about it.

bcollaery 4y ago
Not necessarily. There were secret trials and jailings of Australian whistleblowers (Witness J and K), and we only found out about them almost by accident. The government went after the lawyer in a way reminiscent of the guy in the article. Now that we know the Aussie government does this kind of thing, how many other cases are there that we don't know about? US black sites around the world? Everyone knows about Guantánamo, but how many others are there that don't make the news?

avidphantasm 4y ago

We in the US definitely live in a soft totalitarian system. Like totalitarianism but with heated leather seats if you can afford them.

mxuribe 4y ago
> ...totalitarianism but with heated leather seats... This is the first time i've heard this one! I have heard others too like "we live in handcuffs, pretty and fuzzy handcuffs, but handcuffs no less..." EDIT: I should have added that: i totally agree with you on the sentiment!
glennvtx 4y ago
As long as people recognize hierarchical governments and their claims to authority, this will always be the case.

theonething 4y ago

Given the choice, I'd still much rather live under the jurisdiction of the U.S. than Russia. The U.S. is far from perfect, but I'll choose her over Russia, China, North Korea, Cuba, etc. any day.

FpUser 4y ago
There are other countries outside of those you've just mentioned. And committing comparatively less crimes against their own citizens while fucking up every other country they are in disagreement with is no excuse.
- dylan604 4y ago
  Can you name one country that doesn't have warts?
  - TomSwirly 4y ago
    What's your point? "No country is perfect, so we can ignore even the grossest misconduct by the United States"?
- theonething 4y ago
  Ok, I'll rephrase. I'd choose most any Western democracy over a Communist/Socialist government any day of the week. I'm not making any excuses for any country. A crime is a crime regardless. The GP likened the US to Russia and I to an extent, disagree. There are fundamental differences in worldview, value for democracy and freedom, respect for individual rights, rule of law, the right to protest and criticize the government, freedom of the press etc between those two nations and between Western democracies and communist/socialist countries. I come from one of the latter and live in the US now so I have first hand experience to compare.
  - FpUser 4y ago
    >"I come from one of the latter and live in the US now so I have first hand experience to compare." Same here. I was born in the USSR and came to Canada some 30 years ago. I very much prefer it here ;) My point was not about treatment of their own citizens by any particular country. It was how one country treats the others. From that point of view the victims might see the US in much worse light then say Russia. And the same victims might still want to immigrate to the US because they'll be better off in regards for life standard.

psi75 4y ago

When I look at how figures like Donziger, Assange and Snowden are treated I cant help but think our society is a lot more like Russia than we think we are - differing mostly by a matter of degree, rather than principle. Stalinism was economic totalitarianism with a goal and an exit strategy. Authoritarianism was supposed to be a phase; the system would moderate itself over time. The degree to which that would have actually happened, we don't know. External forces destroyed the Soviet Union, so all we can do is speculate, but I suspect that if it had been left alone, it'd have fixed a lot of its problems and be a decent place to live by now. The corporate system we have now is also economic totalitarianism. Financial interests decide where you can live, what jobs you can do, and what kind of reputation you have in the community. The issue here is that it's economic totalitarianism with no exit strategy. Neoliberalism insists that things have never been better (despite substantial evidence to the contrary) and there's no reason to exit from economic totalitarianism when we should, instead, "own nothing, have no privacy, and be happy".

theonething 4y ago
Stalin was responsible for at least 6 million non-combatant deaths, the majority of which were his own people. He purged society to keep his brand of communism pure. > External forces destroyed the Soviet Union The Soviet Union was stagnating from within. Moscow was losing control and the Baltic Republics, frustrated with the slow pace of reform, one by one seceded. I'm not sure how you're blaming that on external forces. > if it had been left alone, it'd have fixed a lot of its problems and be a decent place to live by now. Given the above, I highly doubt that. I'm a bit incredulous that you're defending Stalinism.
- psi75 4y ago
  I didn't mean to "defend" Stalinism, insofar as the man himself was a paranoid, brutal dictator who did a lot of evil shit; I only meant to contrast it with our totalitarian global corporate capitalism, which is (if we're honest about the matter, and if we take a global view) just as bad. Stalin killed about ten million. Capitalism kills that number, mostly in the Global South, in less than a year.
4y ago

JTbane 4y ago

I don't know why you're being downvoted, but I agree, the more a whisleblower brings to light the more they are treated as a traitor.