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80% of all stops and searches are unfounded. I would not want to live in a community so policed.

• daenz 4y ago
  I wouldn't want to live in a community with 50,176 gunshot alerts either.
  • telchior 4y ago
    You're assuming the "gunshot alerts" are actually gunshots, though. As noted, the sensors will identify other sounds as gunshots, and the company won't reveal its methodology so... do you live in a neighborhood with 50k gunshots, or 5k gunshots and 45k backfiring cars / fireworks / loud songs with gunshot sound effects?
    • daenz 4y ago
      I wouldn't want to live in a community with even 10% of the loud noises being gunshots, no. Saying that there's only 5k real gunshots doesn't make it sound any better. Maybe we should focus on why there's so many gunshots in these specific communities.
      • telchior 4y ago
        Sure, that sounds like a great thing to focus on, but in this particular thread that's specifically about ShotSpotter it mainly serves to change the subject.
        • daenz 4y ago
          The topic has expanded to the related topics, as conversations do. ShotSpotter wouldn't even exist, much less be the topic of criticism, if there wasn't a rampant problem with gun violence in these communities.
          • hiptobecubic 4y ago
            The allegation is that gun violence is a requirement for ShotSpotter, but not the reason for it. The reason for it is that a magic wand that generates probable cause wherever and whenever you need it is extremely valuable to a police force that is judged by metrics like "How many guns did you find today?" The gun violence is just the camouflage that provides plausible deniability. If ShotSpotter had been founded in London they'd have called it "StabSpotter."
    • bluedino 4y ago
      When's the last time you heard a car backfire? And who plays music loud enough to be mistaken for gunfire?
      • woodruffw 4y ago
        Is hearing cars backfire particularly unusual? I hear it once or twice a week. I also hear kids shooting fireworks, and those modifications people do to their motorcycles and cars to make them sound like they're backfiring (even if they aren't; I don't know how these things work).
        • BenjiWiebe 4y ago
          Yes. Since basically all cars are fuel injected these days, it's really rare to hear a backfire.
          • woodruffw 4y ago
            That maybe explains it. My neighborhood has a lot of vintage and modified cars.
    • hermitdev 4y ago
      I don't know about the accuracy of these sensors or the statistics cited, but having lived in and around Chicago for over 20 years, including 2 years on the south side, there are a lot of shootings. Summers are especially bad. Most weekends have double digit body counts. I don't know how many gun shots I've heard in Chicago over the years, but I can tell you how many cars back firing I've heard: zero. I've also heard a ton of fireworks. Southside around the 4th of July? Looks and sounds like a warzone. At least it did down near Bronzeville when I lived there. And before you question my ability to discern a difference, I can. I grew up shooting rifles & shotguns and happened to have a vehicle that back fired with some regularity. Gun shits tend to have a sharper report, a back fire lasts longer, a bit "boomier". And while I like the concept behind ShotSpotter, the company, it's methods and its data governance are... Shoddy. That's probably the most charitable I can put it from what I've read about them.
      • telchior 4y ago
        Yeah, I know nothing about Chicago so I'm not challenging anyone's anecdotal experience. Just pointing out that ShotSpotter, as a source, is potentially pretty awful. Another thing I didn't point out in my comment is that ShotSpotter also changes its data if police tell them to. Which seems like either an admission that their sensor is not very good, or that they're willing to compromise good data when told to.
  • xbar 4y ago
    I heard you say that you wouldn't want to live in a community with 200,704 unfounded searches of the citizens.
• calvinmorrison 4y ago
  But ShotSpotter doesn't do stop and searches. If police are using this to justify searches, thats between the courts and police, not shotspotter
  • public_defender 4y ago
    The issue is that ShotSpotter may be profiting by giving police an excuse to search people when they would not otherwise have sufficient legal grounds.
    • calvinmorrison 4y ago
      Again sounds like the issue is between the police and the courts over what constitutes sufficient legal grounds.
      • ineedasername 4y ago
        An assessment of "sufficient" cannot be determined without understanding how the ShotSpotter system works. Therefore the argument is that police should not be able to use them as probable cause if they don't give some insight into how they work. This is no different than other technologies. DNA testing wouldn't be admissible in legal actions either if the tests were essentially black boxes that couldn't be scrutinized.
  • ineedasername 4y ago
    It markets itself as pinpointing gunshots and police use that as probable cause. Either they reveal something of their methodology so that courts can determine if police reliance on them is reasonable or police shouldn't be allowed to use them.