16 ms·

Cognitive Illiberalism and the Speech-Conduct Distinction

61 points by MaysonL 4y ago

NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
[flagged]
- dibujante 4y ago
  Gonna stay out of gab, thanks: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYr3HYCWAAE6A6T?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYr3HYCWAAE6A6T?format=jpg&name=...
  - niknoble 4y ago
    And Gab's rivals use their megaphones to say less-than-flattering things about white people, men, etc. You're not going to escape bias or vitriol by sticking to one echo chamber. Not in this cultural climate, at least.
    - watwut 4y ago
      Less then flattering is weak sauce, comparatively.
    - dibujante 4y ago
      OK, show me when Twitter official retweeted something calling for white genocide.
- panny 4y ago
  Looks like you've been filter bubbled.
  - hellgas00 4y ago
    That was quick, flagged and dead in less than 20min.
    - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
      hn is only slightly less mainstream/dem than reddit. Very filter bubbled.
- XHNzMVgkCnog 4y ago
- guelo 4y ago
  - RajT88 4y ago
    Anyone who claims they are advocating for small businesses in US Politics, curiously is pushing legislation which helps the largest corporations. I think the people who believe the "little guy" fiction just aren't paying that close attention.
  - niknoble 4y ago
    What he means is that there is vastly more pressure on people to align with the Democratic party than the Republican party. It's hard to imagine that anyone would disagree with this in good faith. It was already true ten years ago, and the amount of pressure has increased by an order of magnitude in the last two years. Thanks to social media, the effect goes well beyond America, and the Democratic Party of the United States effectively sets the tone for all political discussions in Europe and many in Asia. It's one thing to say, "Yes this is a seismic shift, and I support it." I'm happy to have that discussion. But it's so surreal to watch people deny it outright. This whole saga has changed my view of history and human nature.
    - defrost 4y ago
      > the Democratic Party of the United States effectively sets the tone for all political discussions in Europe and many in Asia. Only to the degree of watercooler gossip ala "have you seen what those crazy partisan bicameral central north americans are up to now?"
    - watwut 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - guelo 4y ago
      I disagree in good faith. I honestly have no idea what pressure has increased your talking about in the last 10 years. And this > Thanks to social media, the effect goes well beyond America, and the Democratic Party of the United States effectively sets the tone for all political discussions in Europe and many in Asia. is bonkers. How does the Democratic party set international "tones"?
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  Let's have a look at the front page of poal.co, part of your daily reading to get outside the 'standard' filter bubble. OGRellik88 jewspiracy • 10h ago ANN NSFW Graphic How the ADL started. [652x844 - 142KB] (pic8.co) MrPotatoNigger askpoal • 5h ago How do we stop faggots from fucking monkeys? First it was HIV/AIDS and now Monkeypox... and it only affects one group. Clearly faggots fuck monkeys and they need to be stopped. Ex-Redditor history • 2h ago Kill the messanger. - ‘JFK-Destiny Betrayed’, Leaves No Doubt That JFK Was Assassinated As Part Of A CIA Coup. (rielpolitik.com) Poop videos • 6h ago Testing the Pipe Gun That Killed the Japanese Prime Minister [12:49] (youtu.be) I'm not shocked by any of this, because I've been studying nazis for a couple of decades and this is shit-tier propaganda. My question is who did you think you were going to convert with this drivel?
  - 14amxn14 4y ago
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    >My question is who did you think you were going to convert with this drivel? Why do you think I'm trying to convert anyone? And what do you think I'm trying to convert people to? You have focused on 4 trees and missed the entire forest.
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      Because you've said so. You're advocating people make structured effort to gather information from outside their filter bubble (the current thing, used to be called a 'silo'), a reasonable idea. But the first example you offer for how you go about doing that to differentiate your inputs from HN is a laughably poor knockoff of /pol/. At least /pol/acks make effortposts on a regular basis, there are vigorous contests of ideas, and much that is funny as well as offensive, or that cleverly combines the two. I can think of many other news/political communities and channels that have a right, far right, or outright fascist bias, but offer substantive content of some kind. What's anyone going to get from this lowest-common-denominator forum? It's like you asserted the need to develop a strong immune system and followed up by eating food off the sidewalk.
dane-pgp 4y ago
> Subjects of opposing cultural outlooks who were assigned to the same experimental condition (and thus had the same belief about the nature of the protest) disagreed sharply on key “facts” — including whether the protestors obstructed and threatened pedestrians. That's scary, but it's potentially really helpful in understanding the connections between language and belief. I know there's some controversy about the validity of the so-called Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, but the idea that language and perception affect political culture was well understood by George Orwell, and I'm not surprised if the idea intersects well with the "ultimate attribution error" phenomenon from social psychology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error
- schoen 4y ago
  The authors also give the paper some motivation at the outset by referring to a dispute between Supreme Court justices about what should be obvious to a viewer of a video of a protest. One justice said that the video depicted protected speech activity, while another said that it didn't.
- rossdavidh 4y ago
  I think the problem with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (aside from being poorly named) is that it seems to posit that the lack of a word for a thing, prevents you from perceiving that thing (as for example not having fifty words for snow means you cannot perceive different kinds of snow). This is pretty clearly incorrect, since it is the very lack of a word for a thing that you perceive (and want to talk about) that leads us to invent new words (or repurpose old ones). Thus, English-speaking skiers come up with a new use of the term "powder" to refer to a particular kind of snow, once they have a reason to care about it and want to discuss it with one another. The more general idea that language and perception affect political culture is not as controversial, although the degree to which the tail wags the dog or vice versa is still debated.
  - IIAOPSW 4y ago
    I thought the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis only predicted that the difficulty in understanding certain things would be language dependent, not that it would be impossible per se. To make an apt analogy, some languages force you to declare a whole bunch of factory methods and boilerplate bloat before you can express a program that prints "hello world", others simply let you write print("hello world").
karaterobot 4y ago
Before making moral evaluations, it's really useful to look at these situations, and try to automatically reverse the "polarity" of the actors involved. If you see people doing something and you think they're on your side, imagine a similar scenario in which people are taking the same actions for a cause you are violently opposed to, or on behalf of a group you find deplorable. And vice versa. This helps reduce the chances you'll get confused and take a hypocritical position.
- clairity 4y ago
  or even simpler, stop being on a side, then you don't have to do mental tricks like "reversing the polarity". you can just see things for the way they are, without personal identity invested in the situation. this is exactly what being independent is.
  - hirundo 4y ago
    I think of the abortion issue as like a necker cube. You can view the optical illusion as extending inward or outward. But it is difficult to see it both ways. You could easily see it as flat, but then you aren't really seeing it at all. Partisans may object "but in the abortion case it is objectively extending inward and the other perspective is the optical illusion". But that objectivity is a moral illusion.
    - clairity 4y ago
      remember that the abortion issue, as a matter of law, is about the state's interests in the body. it does not litigate religious or social mores, but most of the "debate" is of this latter type. i personally agree with the recent supreme court ruling that abortion rights shouldn't rest on privacy protections, but rather on a robust reading of the constitution that bodily autonomy is a fundamental right above and beyond states' interests (nation state or US state). i'd extend this to the issues of euthanasia and suicide as well. the state should have a very narrow and rigorously limited set of concerns (foreign relations and interstate disputes, in the case of the US federal govt).
NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
This is why it's so important to deliberately escape any filter bubbles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble) you may be in. Pre-2015 reddit's r/all was a reasonable, if lazy way to do this. After their free speech bait & switch it became mostly useless for anything but entertainment and establishment/Democrat propaganda. Here's a subset of my "daily" bookmark folder that at least attempts to do this for me when combined with honestly too heavy reddit/facebook usage: * http://news.ycombinator.com/ http://news.ycombinator.com/ * https://poal.co/ https://poal.co/ * http://slashdot.org/ http://slashdot.org/ * https://www.allsides.com/unbiased-balanced-news https://www.allsides.com/unbiased-balanced-news * https://gab.com/ https://gab.com/ * https://www.unz.com/ https://www.unz.com/ * https://gettr.com/ https://gettr.com/ Are some of them controversial? Of course, but that's the point. The wildly authoritarian left leaning sites that comprise big tech as a whole represent a single filter bubble. Staying in any particular bubble (right wing ones exist too) is a great way to turn yourself into a useful idiot/cultists/NPC. Because the difficulty of tuning into a site that only leans in one direction isn't that you'll get biased news coverage, but whole entire stories are completely left out if they're bad for that side, and stories that are eventually found to be wildly incorrect, or even completely false issue only the quietest of correction edits while the untrue memes repeat ad infinite, but sites that lean the other way will ruthlessly correct their opponents. The most important things to be reading are the things that are never talked about in your bias-confirming sources of infotainment. tl;dr: filter bubbles bad, they'll turn you into a cultist

61 points by MaysonL 4y ago

NaturalPhallacy 4y ago

[flagged]

dibujante 4y ago
Gonna stay out of gab, thanks: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYr3HYCWAAE6A6T?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYr3HYCWAAE6A6T?format=jpg&name=...
- niknoble 4y ago
  And Gab's rivals use their megaphones to say less-than-flattering things about white people, men, etc. You're not going to escape bias or vitriol by sticking to one echo chamber. Not in this cultural climate, at least.
  - watwut 4y ago
    Less then flattering is weak sauce, comparatively.
  - dibujante 4y ago
    OK, show me when Twitter official retweeted something calling for white genocide.
panny 4y ago
Looks like you've been filter bubbled.
- hellgas00 4y ago
  That was quick, flagged and dead in less than 20min.
  - NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
    hn is only slightly less mainstream/dem than reddit. Very filter bubbled.
XHNzMVgkCnog 4y ago
guelo 4y ago
- RajT88 4y ago
  Anyone who claims they are advocating for small businesses in US Politics, curiously is pushing legislation which helps the largest corporations. I think the people who believe the "little guy" fiction just aren't paying that close attention.
- niknoble 4y ago
  What he means is that there is vastly more pressure on people to align with the Democratic party than the Republican party. It's hard to imagine that anyone would disagree with this in good faith. It was already true ten years ago, and the amount of pressure has increased by an order of magnitude in the last two years. Thanks to social media, the effect goes well beyond America, and the Democratic Party of the United States effectively sets the tone for all political discussions in Europe and many in Asia. It's one thing to say, "Yes this is a seismic shift, and I support it." I'm happy to have that discussion. But it's so surreal to watch people deny it outright. This whole saga has changed my view of history and human nature.
  - defrost 4y ago
    > the Democratic Party of the United States effectively sets the tone for all political discussions in Europe and many in Asia. Only to the degree of watercooler gossip ala "have you seen what those crazy partisan bicameral central north americans are up to now?"
  - watwut 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - guelo 4y ago
    I disagree in good faith. I honestly have no idea what pressure has increased your talking about in the last 10 years. And this > Thanks to social media, the effect goes well beyond America, and the Democratic Party of the United States effectively sets the tone for all political discussions in Europe and many in Asia. is bonkers. How does the Democratic party set international "tones"?
anigbrowl 4y ago
Let's have a look at the front page of poal.co, part of your daily reading to get outside the 'standard' filter bubble. OGRellik88 jewspiracy • 10h ago ANN NSFW Graphic How the ADL started. [652x844 - 142KB] (pic8.co) MrPotatoNigger askpoal • 5h ago How do we stop faggots from fucking monkeys? First it was HIV/AIDS and now Monkeypox... and it only affects one group. Clearly faggots fuck monkeys and they need to be stopped. Ex-Redditor history • 2h ago Kill the messanger. - ‘JFK-Destiny Betrayed’, Leaves No Doubt That JFK Was Assassinated As Part Of A CIA Coup. (rielpolitik.com) Poop videos • 6h ago Testing the Pipe Gun That Killed the Japanese Prime Minister [12:49] (youtu.be) I'm not shocked by any of this, because I've been studying nazis for a couple of decades and this is shit-tier propaganda. My question is who did you think you were going to convert with this drivel?
- 14amxn14 4y ago
- NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
  >My question is who did you think you were going to convert with this drivel? Why do you think I'm trying to convert anyone? And what do you think I'm trying to convert people to? You have focused on 4 trees and missed the entire forest.
  - anigbrowl 4y ago
    Because you've said so. You're advocating people make structured effort to gather information from outside their filter bubble (the current thing, used to be called a 'silo'), a reasonable idea. But the first example you offer for how you go about doing that to differentiate your inputs from HN is a laughably poor knockoff of /pol/. At least /pol/acks make effortposts on a regular basis, there are vigorous contests of ideas, and much that is funny as well as offensive, or that cleverly combines the two. I can think of many other news/political communities and channels that have a right, far right, or outright fascist bias, but offer substantive content of some kind. What's anyone going to get from this lowest-common-denominator forum? It's like you asserted the need to develop a strong immune system and followed up by eating food off the sidewalk.

dane-pgp 4y ago

> Subjects of opposing cultural outlooks who were assigned to the same experimental condition (and thus had the same belief about the nature of the protest) disagreed sharply on key “facts” — including whether the protestors obstructed and threatened pedestrians. That's scary, but it's potentially really helpful in understanding the connections between language and belief. I know there's some controversy about the validity of the so-called Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, but the idea that language and perception affect political culture was well understood by George Orwell, and I'm not surprised if the idea intersects well with the "ultimate attribution error" phenomenon from social psychology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_attribution_error

schoen 4y ago
The authors also give the paper some motivation at the outset by referring to a dispute between Supreme Court justices about what should be obvious to a viewer of a video of a protest. One justice said that the video depicted protected speech activity, while another said that it didn't.
rossdavidh 4y ago
I think the problem with the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis (aside from being poorly named) is that it seems to posit that the lack of a word for a thing, prevents you from perceiving that thing (as for example not having fifty words for snow means you cannot perceive different kinds of snow). This is pretty clearly incorrect, since it is the very lack of a word for a thing that you perceive (and want to talk about) that leads us to invent new words (or repurpose old ones). Thus, English-speaking skiers come up with a new use of the term "powder" to refer to a particular kind of snow, once they have a reason to care about it and want to discuss it with one another. The more general idea that language and perception affect political culture is not as controversial, although the degree to which the tail wags the dog or vice versa is still debated.
- IIAOPSW 4y ago
  I thought the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis only predicted that the difficulty in understanding certain things would be language dependent, not that it would be impossible per se. To make an apt analogy, some languages force you to declare a whole bunch of factory methods and boilerplate bloat before you can express a program that prints "hello world", others simply let you write print("hello world").

karaterobot 4y ago

Before making moral evaluations, it's really useful to look at these situations, and try to automatically reverse the "polarity" of the actors involved. If you see people doing something and you think they're on your side, imagine a similar scenario in which people are taking the same actions for a cause you are violently opposed to, or on behalf of a group you find deplorable. And vice versa. This helps reduce the chances you'll get confused and take a hypocritical position.

clairity 4y ago
or even simpler, stop being on a side, then you don't have to do mental tricks like "reversing the polarity". you can just see things for the way they are, without personal identity invested in the situation. this is exactly what being independent is.
- hirundo 4y ago
  I think of the abortion issue as like a necker cube. You can view the optical illusion as extending inward or outward. But it is difficult to see it both ways. You could easily see it as flat, but then you aren't really seeing it at all. Partisans may object "but in the abortion case it is objectively extending inward and the other perspective is the optical illusion". But that objectivity is a moral illusion.
  - clairity 4y ago
    remember that the abortion issue, as a matter of law, is about the state's interests in the body. it does not litigate religious or social mores, but most of the "debate" is of this latter type. i personally agree with the recent supreme court ruling that abortion rights shouldn't rest on privacy protections, but rather on a robust reading of the constitution that bodily autonomy is a fundamental right above and beyond states' interests (nation state or US state). i'd extend this to the issues of euthanasia and suicide as well. the state should have a very narrow and rigorously limited set of concerns (foreign relations and interstate disputes, in the case of the US federal govt).

NaturalPhallacy 4y ago

This is why it's so important to deliberately escape any filter bubbles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble) you may be in. Pre-2015 reddit's r/all was a reasonable, if lazy way to do this. After their free speech bait & switch it became mostly useless for anything but entertainment and establishment/Democrat propaganda. Here's a subset of my "daily" bookmark folder that at least attempts to do this for me when combined with honestly too heavy reddit/facebook usage: * http://news.ycombinator.com/ http://news.ycombinator.com/ * https://poal.co/ https://poal.co/ * http://slashdot.org/ http://slashdot.org/ * https://www.allsides.com/unbiased-balanced-news https://www.allsides.com/unbiased-balanced-news * https://gab.com/ https://gab.com/ * https://www.unz.com/ https://www.unz.com/ * https://gettr.com/ https://gettr.com/ Are some of them controversial? Of course, but that's the point. The wildly authoritarian left leaning sites that comprise big tech as a whole represent a single filter bubble. Staying in any particular bubble (right wing ones exist too) is a great way to turn yourself into a useful idiot/cultists/NPC. Because the difficulty of tuning into a site that only leans in one direction isn't that you'll get biased news coverage, but whole entire stories are completely left out if they're bad for that side, and stories that are eventually found to be wildly incorrect, or even completely false issue only the quietest of correction edits while the untrue memes repeat ad infinite, but sites that lean the other way will ruthlessly correct their opponents. The most important things to be reading are the things that are never talked about in your bias-confirming sources of infotainment. tl;dr: filter bubbles bad, they'll turn you into a cultist