3 ms·

But it is, just the government. They refuse to cut down on deficit spending, keep a hopelessly intractable tax system, and they keep the money printer running n

But it is, just the government. They refuse to cut down on deficit spending, keep a hopelessly intractable tax system, and they keep the money printer running non-stop to keep up. It doesn't help that they keep one of the most unenviable levels of corruption, either. And it's not limited to the current government, their previous one was woefully incompetent at fixing deficit spending. But it can't also be denied that the party in power is the one that refuses under any circumstance to address the underlying cause. Everything else you mentioned: Loans, bank runs, rampant inflation impacting land value, and business trying to protect their investments from the governments' byzantine rules and outright thievery through price controls that expects them to produce at a loss, is just a byproduct of government policy that is rotten to the core and a population that keeps electing the same incompetent buffoons that do not dare or desire to make the necessary changes.

the_af 4y ago
> But it is, just the government. I really don't think it is just the government, nor is it the lack of cutting down deficit spending, nor the tax system. I try to take a more historically grounded view. I don't think there are easy answers though. I believe the view that "there's the government, and there's this bunch of innocent businessmen at the mercy of big bad government" is not very compelling, for various reasons. One is that democratic governments in Argentina are pretty weak, all things considered; they aren't all-powerful, they usually have an opposition running interference at every step, US-style. Another is that when some businessmen had their chance to run their own government (you mentioned one recent occasion, the dictatorship was another) they still screwed up.
- argentinian 4y ago
  The dictatorship is 'some businessmen' to you? That's an strange interpretation. And Macri's business become big thanks to its links to government (you can check the story of 'grupo macri' in wikipedia).
  - the_af 4y ago
    > The dictatorship is 'some businessmen' to you? Yes. The actual men in green uniforms were just the visible face of the dictatorship. There were actual businessmen behind their economic policies. Not for nothing the dictatorship is called the civic-military dictatorship, as you well know if you are from Argentina. > And Macri's business become big thanks to its links to government I'm well aware of Macri's corruption and its links to the government. It's ironic, really -- those who benefited the most from government ties are so quick to decry "government corruption". Such is the history of corruption, too: one foot in the government, one foot outside of it. Both parts are important. I think, historically, the government is the weaker part in Argentina, at the beck and call of those actually calling the shots.
- mixedCase 4y ago
  The answers are suprisingly easy. And the people to blame are obvious. There's little nuance to be had and no "historical context" is needed beyond "it's been fucked for a while because spending has been fucked for a while". If you want to choose to believe that this is an "us vs greedy capitalists/the opposition/whatever" problem, that Argentina's problem is highly complex, multi-layered, too hard to deal with, and that the devil is in the details like the government tells people to believe on the TV, don't be surprised or angry by the results. I've also never implied the solution is to let "some businessmen" run the country, and in fact implied that clearly not to be the case with my statement on Macri's government. Argentina is in such a dire state of emergency that it matters none if it's a right-wing, left-wing or whatever kind of government that's running the show because given basic competent human beings willing to fix the country that kind of "detail" only matters once you have surplus money to expend and you have to decide what to do with it. There's only one way out of this and it's to fix the budget by cutting spending to reasonable levels in one go, do away with inflationary practices, and make it possible for productive people to produce without having to worry about arcane tax rules. And again, tax-wise it's not so much the tax rate that matters (although in the short term it does, because Argentina has fucked over investors time and again and needs to do a lot to seduce money back in) as it is the amount and complexity of the tax system that leads people to evade them. There are many political situations where information is scarce and there's room for honest discussion. In this one, there is none. I just hope that the only person stating basic truths over there looking and acting like a clown doesn't ruin your chances of not becoming another Venezuela.
  - the_af 4y ago
    > The answers are suprisingly easy. And the people to blame are obvious. There's little nuance to be had and no "historical context" is needed beyond "it's been fucked for a while because spending has been fucked for a while". I obviously disagree with this. Whatever else our differences are, I don't think anyone thinks "the answers are surprisingly easy". > There are many political situations where information is scarce and there's room for honest discussion. In this one, there is none. I... well, I'm glad you have this level of certainty that you think there's no room for honest discussion. > I just hope that the only person stating basic truths over there looking and acting like a clown doesn't ruin your chances of not becoming another Venezuela. I'm afraid I know who you are talking about. "Basic truths" :facepalm:

the_af 4y ago

> But it is, just the government. I really don't think it is just the government, nor is it the lack of cutting down deficit spending, nor the tax system. I try to take a more historically grounded view. I don't think there are easy answers though. I believe the view that "there's the government, and there's this bunch of innocent businessmen at the mercy of big bad government" is not very compelling, for various reasons. One is that democratic governments in Argentina are pretty weak, all things considered; they aren't all-powerful, they usually have an opposition running interference at every step, US-style. Another is that when some businessmen had their chance to run their own government (you mentioned one recent occasion, the dictatorship was another) they still screwed up.

argentinian 4y ago
The dictatorship is 'some businessmen' to you? That's an strange interpretation. And Macri's business become big thanks to its links to government (you can check the story of 'grupo macri' in wikipedia).
- the_af 4y ago
  > The dictatorship is 'some businessmen' to you? Yes. The actual men in green uniforms were just the visible face of the dictatorship. There were actual businessmen behind their economic policies. Not for nothing the dictatorship is called the civic-military dictatorship, as you well know if you are from Argentina. > And Macri's business become big thanks to its links to government I'm well aware of Macri's corruption and its links to the government. It's ironic, really -- those who benefited the most from government ties are so quick to decry "government corruption". Such is the history of corruption, too: one foot in the government, one foot outside of it. Both parts are important. I think, historically, the government is the weaker part in Argentina, at the beck and call of those actually calling the shots.
mixedCase 4y ago
The answers are suprisingly easy. And the people to blame are obvious. There's little nuance to be had and no "historical context" is needed beyond "it's been fucked for a while because spending has been fucked for a while". If you want to choose to believe that this is an "us vs greedy capitalists/the opposition/whatever" problem, that Argentina's problem is highly complex, multi-layered, too hard to deal with, and that the devil is in the details like the government tells people to believe on the TV, don't be surprised or angry by the results. I've also never implied the solution is to let "some businessmen" run the country, and in fact implied that clearly not to be the case with my statement on Macri's government. Argentina is in such a dire state of emergency that it matters none if it's a right-wing, left-wing or whatever kind of government that's running the show because given basic competent human beings willing to fix the country that kind of "detail" only matters once you have surplus money to expend and you have to decide what to do with it. There's only one way out of this and it's to fix the budget by cutting spending to reasonable levels in one go, do away with inflationary practices, and make it possible for productive people to produce without having to worry about arcane tax rules. And again, tax-wise it's not so much the tax rate that matters (although in the short term it does, because Argentina has fucked over investors time and again and needs to do a lot to seduce money back in) as it is the amount and complexity of the tax system that leads people to evade them. There are many political situations where information is scarce and there's room for honest discussion. In this one, there is none. I just hope that the only person stating basic truths over there looking and acting like a clown doesn't ruin your chances of not becoming another Venezuela.
- the_af 4y ago
  > The answers are suprisingly easy. And the people to blame are obvious. There's little nuance to be had and no "historical context" is needed beyond "it's been fucked for a while because spending has been fucked for a while". I obviously disagree with this. Whatever else our differences are, I don't think anyone thinks "the answers are surprisingly easy". > There are many political situations where information is scarce and there's room for honest discussion. In this one, there is none. I... well, I'm glad you have this level of certainty that you think there's no room for honest discussion. > I just hope that the only person stating basic truths over there looking and acting like a clown doesn't ruin your chances of not becoming another Venezuela. I'm afraid I know who you are talking about. "Basic truths" :facepalm: