4 ms·

I don't like burglars, but a death penalty without trial is a bit much. And what about accidents and misunderstandings?

DennisP 4y ago
In many states, it's a bit much for legality too. In mine for example, I have to be reasonably in fear for my life to shoot someone in my house. That said, not everyone who breaks in is just after your stuff, especially if they come at night.
- cle 4y ago
  It's a tough line to draw. Personally, if someone has already demonstrated that they're willing to commit a felony (burglary), then I'm in fear for my life and the lives of my family. I get why some states don't consider that a justification for use of deadly force, but I also get why some states do.
omginternets 4y ago
Those are obviously bad and efforts should be made to reduce them. However, it's important to recognize the small proportion of events that started as a burglary and evolved into something much worse. With this in mind, it stands to reason that burglaries are no ordinary encounters, and that the criteria for lethal force in that situation ought to be relaxed relative to e.g. walking down a crowded street at high-noon. Even in America, I don't know anyone who honestly thinks that shooting a burglar is prima facie proportionate. The claim is usually more sophisticated, and has two parts: 1. Pointing a gun at someone who has unlawfully entered one's home is a proportionate response. 2. One cannot rightly expect the home-owner to prioritize the trespasser's safety over his own, even in ambiguous situations.
lelanthran 4y ago
> I don't like burglars, but a death penalty without trial is a bit much. And what about accidents and misunderstandings? I'm tired of this trope, repeated several times in this, that is used to excuse people breaking into houses. Anyone breaking into a house while people are in it are not burglars, they're attackers. It's perfectly okay to defend your family with lethal force. Criminals breaking into the car in the driveway? No point in lethal force. Collect from the insurance. Criminals breaking into the house your kids are sleeping in? No amount of insurance is going to replace them, so it is stupid to wait and see if the criminals will direct lethal force towards your kids before defending yourself. I repeat, it is stupid to rely on the goodwill of attackers in your home to not harm your children!. Stop trivialising attacks by calling it theft.
- jstanley 4y ago
  But you could say the same thing about random people in the street that you don't like the look of: it's stupid to wait and see if they're going to murder your kids, so the best thing to do is murder them first. And no, someone who breaks into a house with the intention of burgling is not an attacker, they're a burglar, regardless of whether other people are in the house. Someone who breaks into a house with the intention of attacking people is an attacker.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    > But you could say the same thing about random people in the street that you don't like the look of: it's stupid to wait and see if they're going to murder your kids, so the best thing to do is murder them first. No, you couldn't, because they did not use force to get into the space of your children. > And no, someone who breaks into a house with the intention of burgling is not an attacker, they're a burglar, regardless of whether other people are in the house. If they wanted to burgle they'd come when there was no one home. The fact that they came specifically when people are there is because they don't care about doing damage to the people (in which case, yes, they are attackers), or they came specifically for the people. Really, if a burglar wants something, there's tons of opportunities when the house is empty. > Someone who breaks into a house with the intention of attacking people is an attacker. You only find out about their intention after they have done the damage (or lack thereof). The only clear indication you have of their intent is that they deliberately waited until the people were home. I am saying it is stupid to wait until after someone has killed your child to defend that child, especially when that person intentionally waits for people to be home. It's hard to feel sympathy for attackers who wait for children to be home before they break in. If they didn't want to be dealt with as attackers, they should break in when no one is home.
    - wheybags 4y ago
      Or maybe they didn't know anyone was home? It's not so hard to imagine many scenarios where someone just wanted to rob the place.

In many states, it's a bit much for legality too. In mine for example, I have to be reasonably in fear for my life to shoot someone in my house. That said, not everyone who breaks in is just after your stuff, especially if they come at night.

cle 4y ago
It's a tough line to draw. Personally, if someone has already demonstrated that they're willing to commit a felony (burglary), then I'm in fear for my life and the lives of my family. I get why some states don't consider that a justification for use of deadly force, but I also get why some states do.

omginternets 4y ago

Those are obviously bad and efforts should be made to reduce them. However, it's important to recognize the small proportion of events that started as a burglary and evolved into something much worse. With this in mind, it stands to reason that burglaries are no ordinary encounters, and that the criteria for lethal force in that situation ought to be relaxed relative to e.g. walking down a crowded street at high-noon. Even in America, I don't know anyone who honestly thinks that shooting a burglar is prima facie proportionate. The claim is usually more sophisticated, and has two parts: 1. Pointing a gun at someone who has unlawfully entered one's home is a proportionate response. 2. One cannot rightly expect the home-owner to prioritize the trespasser's safety over his own, even in ambiguous situations.

lelanthran 4y ago

> I don't like burglars, but a death penalty without trial is a bit much. And what about accidents and misunderstandings? I'm tired of this trope, repeated several times in this, that is used to excuse people breaking into houses. Anyone breaking into a house while people are in it are not burglars, they're attackers. It's perfectly okay to defend your family with lethal force. Criminals breaking into the car in the driveway? No point in lethal force. Collect from the insurance. Criminals breaking into the house your kids are sleeping in? No amount of insurance is going to replace them, so it is stupid to wait and see if the criminals will direct lethal force towards your kids before defending yourself. I repeat, it is stupid to rely on the goodwill of attackers in your home to not harm your children!. Stop trivialising attacks by calling it theft.

jstanley 4y ago
But you could say the same thing about random people in the street that you don't like the look of: it's stupid to wait and see if they're going to murder your kids, so the best thing to do is murder them first. And no, someone who breaks into a house with the intention of burgling is not an attacker, they're a burglar, regardless of whether other people are in the house. Someone who breaks into a house with the intention of attacking people is an attacker.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  > But you could say the same thing about random people in the street that you don't like the look of: it's stupid to wait and see if they're going to murder your kids, so the best thing to do is murder them first. No, you couldn't, because they did not use force to get into the space of your children. > And no, someone who breaks into a house with the intention of burgling is not an attacker, they're a burglar, regardless of whether other people are in the house. If they wanted to burgle they'd come when there was no one home. The fact that they came specifically when people are there is because they don't care about doing damage to the people (in which case, yes, they are attackers), or they came specifically for the people. Really, if a burglar wants something, there's tons of opportunities when the house is empty. > Someone who breaks into a house with the intention of attacking people is an attacker. You only find out about their intention after they have done the damage (or lack thereof). The only clear indication you have of their intent is that they deliberately waited until the people were home. I am saying it is stupid to wait until after someone has killed your child to defend that child, especially when that person intentionally waits for people to be home. It's hard to feel sympathy for attackers who wait for children to be home before they break in. If they didn't want to be dealt with as attackers, they should break in when no one is home.
  - wheybags 4y ago
    Or maybe they didn't know anyone was home? It's not so hard to imagine many scenarios where someone just wanted to rob the place.