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They could have done that by making more streamlined XMPP clients or improving release engineering for servers, or creating new logos to rally around, or solvin

by hosh 4y ago

They could have done that by making more streamlined XMPP clients or improving release engineering for servers, or creating new logos to rally around, or solving the spam problem or pushing the idea of “Jabber home servers”, or provide services to aggregate RSS, or even making a completey open-source and open standard “skin” for a Slack experience, or protoyping a Websocket replacement for BOSH, or write Javascript XMPP libraries that let devs hack on the front end. But they did not do any of that. It’s as if the people involved with Matrix don’t really know what is available for XMPP, or have studied its history to see what is in store for their own efforts. I have a friend that was seriously trying to create a service backed by Matrix. He saw it as a way to bring e2ee to more people. Yet recently, when I revisited XMPP and discussed it with him, the more I dig into XMPP, the more I’m scratching my head — why didn’t we just start with XMPP?

Arathorn 4y ago
Speaking as project lead for Matrix: Matrix is not an attempt to reinvent XMPP, plus we had extensive XMPP experience before creating Matrix (running 10M+ user ejabberd deployments; writing XMPP clients based on Smack, XMPP.Framework and Strophe.js; writing our own ejabberd modules for things like push notifications and persistent chat history, etc). Instead, Matrix is an entirely different architecture with different tradeoffs which you may or may not agree with. The main differentiators are: * It's a protocol for replicating conversation history; not for passing messages. * You get eventually consistent conversation history, as well as decentralised key-value store for metadata about the room. * Rooms are entirely decentralised over the participating servers; there are no single points of failure/control in a room. * It automatically heals after network partitions * It's a single monolithic spec * E2EE is on by default. If anything, Matrix is more like NNTP than XMPP. Now, you're welcome to dislike Matrix and build on XMPP (or SMTP or NNTP or SIP or MSRP or IRC or whatever other messaging protocol floats your boat) instead, but it's completely and utterly wrong to claim that Matrix is just a reinvention of XMPP by people who don't understand XMPP, or a marketing gimmick.
- hosh 4y ago
  Thank you for explaining this. My claims about the reinvention were incorrect. I didn't think about the replicated conversation history and did not know about the decentralized rooms (though looking back, I can see what you mean by that if XMPP rooms are tied to a JID). Those kind of properties seem to work better for some ideas of mine's, though there are others that XMPP still seem to be better for other ideas.
- zaik 4y ago
  If you visit matrix.org under 'Imagine a world...' you're describing exactly what XMPP is already doing.
  - tcfhgj 4y ago
    Trying

by hosh 4y ago

Arathorn 4y ago

Speaking as project lead for Matrix: Matrix is not an attempt to reinvent XMPP, plus we had extensive XMPP experience before creating Matrix (running 10M+ user ejabberd deployments; writing XMPP clients based on Smack, XMPP.Framework and Strophe.js; writing our own ejabberd modules for things like push notifications and persistent chat history, etc). Instead, Matrix is an entirely different architecture with different tradeoffs which you may or may not agree with. The main differentiators are: * It's a protocol for replicating conversation history; not for passing messages. * You get eventually consistent conversation history, as well as decentralised key-value store for metadata about the room. * Rooms are entirely decentralised over the participating servers; there are no single points of failure/control in a room. * It automatically heals after network partitions * It's a single monolithic spec * E2EE is on by default. If anything, Matrix is more like NNTP than XMPP. Now, you're welcome to dislike Matrix and build on XMPP (or SMTP or NNTP or SIP or MSRP or IRC or whatever other messaging protocol floats your boat) instead, but it's completely and utterly wrong to claim that Matrix is just a reinvention of XMPP by people who don't understand XMPP, or a marketing gimmick.

hosh 4y ago
Thank you for explaining this. My claims about the reinvention were incorrect. I didn't think about the replicated conversation history and did not know about the decentralized rooms (though looking back, I can see what you mean by that if XMPP rooms are tied to a JID). Those kind of properties seem to work better for some ideas of mine's, though there are others that XMPP still seem to be better for other ideas.
zaik 4y ago
If you visit matrix.org under 'Imagine a world...' you're describing exactly what XMPP is already doing.
- tcfhgj 4y ago
  Trying