6 ms·

Classist bullshit. Police the people who have the least money and time to fix things. Awesome, yea that's great for society. Put more pressure on poor people in

by feet 4y ago

Classist bullshit. Police the people who have the least money and time to fix things. Awesome, yea that's great for society. Put more pressure on poor people instead of just helping them.

tinus_hn 4y ago
How are you supposed to help people that want to spray their ‘art’ on other peoples property? People that want to vandalize other peoples property? Give them free paint?
- orf 4y ago
  Sure! and specific places to do it. Works for other countries.
  - feet 4y ago
    Graffiti art is beautiful, I think you have a great idea. Another perspective is that people do what they can afford to, murals can be an inexpensive way to brighten an otherwise bleak area.
  - tinus_hn 4y ago
    In other news, all these great artists start out as great artists, not vandals who practice spraying ‘ass’ on a wall 5000 times before they are good enough to make a great work of art.
  - hickvision 4y ago
    The naivite of this belief is precious. Yes, some people use spraypaint to make stunning, socially relevant art. Banksy is, in some sense, a graffiti artist. But most graffiti has nothing to do with Banksy-esque social commentary. In fact, much of it is simply gang signs labeling areas of turf control. The people writing these gang sign messages are absolutely not interested in having a specific, authorized place in which to exhibit their street artwork.
    - feet 4y ago
      Intent of the artist does not matter, art is subjective and the production of the system of many artists layering their works over time has a beauty in itself It's some seriously privileged classist stuff to make the claims that you're making
      - hickvision 4y ago
        It's seriously privileged and classist to acknowledge that much graffiti is merely gang tags advertising territorial control over an area? It's "subjective" whether or not gang tags constitute art, rather than a danger to the community?!? Huh?!
        feet 4y ago
        Dangerous art? I wonder which groups of people called art dangerous in the past It's crazy how some people think painted symbols present a danger to humans somehow
        hickvision 4y ago
        How much do you know about street gangs? Yeah, they're dangerous! Turf markings are extremely dangerous. They aren't put there to be art, it's like calling a "caution: floor is wet" sign "art". I'm trying not to be offensive or personal here, but I'm stunned at this take that refuses to acknowledge how dangerous and harmful street gangs are to communities. If you've ever had to live in a neighborhood with them, like I have, then I doubt this would be as much of an issue for you?
        feet 4y ago
        I said the symbols. Painted symbols can easily outlast the people who painted them, painted symbols existing is not an indicator of present danger. It's bizarre how you're conflating the two
        4y ago
- feet 4y ago
  Investing in communities gives people things to do. People can't invest when they're broke, throwing police at them does nothing to help, in fact it does the opposite. Also your comment makes it sound like literally all people are just vandals who do graffiti. That's a disgusting view of humans that lacks perspective and nuance.
  - hfourm 4y ago
    I feel like you didn't read the Wikipedia? Where are you getting your take.
    - eesmith 4y ago
      feet's "Classist bullshit" is a take on the Wikipedia entry, under "Class bias" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory#Class_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory#Class_bi... , which includes: > Critics, such as Robert J. Sampson and Stephen Raudenbush of Harvard University, see the application of the broken windows theory in policing as a war against the poor, as opposed to a war against more serious crimes.
    - feet 4y ago
      I'm getting my take from how the idea is actually implemented and acted upon in reality in the US, not from how people claim it should be implemented as an ideology >It was popularized in the 1990s by New York City police commissioner William Bratton and mayor Rudy Giuliani, whose policing policies were influenced by the theory. Example of the absurdity of implementation: >Throughout the late 1990s, NYPD shut down many of the city's acclaimed night spots for illegal dancing. Tons of criticisms, not to mention it was partially popularized by an incredibly flawed study by the infamous Zimbardo >However, other studies do not find a cause and effect relationship between the adoption of such policies and decreases in crime.[6][25] The decrease may have been part of a broader trend across the United States. The rates of most crimes, including all categories of violent crime, made consecutive declines from their peak in 1990, under Giuliani's predecessor, David Dinkins. Other cities also experienced less crime, even though they had different police policies >Baltimore criminologist Ralph B. Taylor argues in his book that fixing windows is only a partial and short-term solution. His data supports a materialist view: changes in levels of physical decay, superficial social disorder, and racial composition do not lead to higher crime, but economic decline does. He contends that the example shows that real, long-term reductions in crime require that urban politicians, businesses, and community leaders work together to improve the economic fortunes of residents in high-crime areas.[42] >According to a study by Robert J. Sampson and Stephen Raudenbush, the premise on which the theory operates, that social disorder and crime are connected as part of a causal chain, is faulty. They argue that a third factor, collective efficacy, "defined as cohesion among residents combined with shared expectations for the social control of public space," is the actual cause of varying crime rates that are observed in an altered neighborhood environment. They also argue that the relationship between public disorder and crime rate is weak.[44] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory There are so many issues it's difficult to fit everything in one comment. Did you read the wikipedia article?
refurb 4y ago
Funny how the minorities who actually live in crappy neighborhoods want more policing, but plenty of uppity whites claim it’s racist while safely ensconced in their safe neighborhoods.
- ProjectArcturis 4y ago
  Citation needed.
  - refurb 4y ago
    https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r...
    - ProjectArcturis 4y ago
      That does not support your claim.
- feet 4y ago
  You're the only one talking about race here buddy, you might want to think your stance as it sounds a bit racist
  - refurb 4y ago
    - feet 4y ago
      Can you please quote the part of my comment that mentions race?
- dang 4y ago
  Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. What you did in this thread is not ok. We've had to ask/warn you about this many times in the past, and you've unfortunately continued to do it. If this keeps up, we're going to have to ban you, so please stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
hickvision 4y ago
It isn't classist bullshit at all, it's human psychology observable and testable even on small scales. Try this experiment! Detail clean your car meticulously, and on separate occasions, ask friends to come with you to get some fast food. Notice how much trash they leave behind in the car when they're done - probably none. Now, deliberately make your car interior messy and dirty. Run the same test again with different friends, and observe that more trash has been left behind. Humans naturally conform to the expectations of society, which they interpret based partially on environmental cues of their surroundings. When those environmental cues advertise social expectations of lawlessness, uncaring, and valuelessness, behavior alters to match expectations.
- feet 4y ago
  Anecdote is not a study nor is it generalizable to a large population. Not to mention your "population" in this case is preselected from your own friend group
  - ChrisLomont 4y ago
    >Anecdote is not a study nor is it generalizable to a large population. The page lists many actual studies over large populations with links to read more of the research. OP may have felt since you don't believe the actual studies which were listed and are pretty conclusive, that you can test it yourself to get a feel of the phenomenon. Don't like that, here's [1] google scholar on the broken windows theory, with scads of papers you can read to satisfy your request for studies. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C15&q=broken+windows+theory&btnG=&oq=broken+windows https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C15&q=bro...
    - feet 4y ago
      The page also lists how Zimbardo demonstrated the principle by interfering with his "study" That's alongside numerous other critiques and criticisms which are generally more recent on the wikipedia page that we are commenting on. All you have to do is scroll down.
dang 4y ago
Can you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? It makes threads dumber and nastier. Please make your substantive points without that. We've already had to ask you this once before, and you've continued to post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments pretty regularly. We end up having to ban such accounts, so please fix this. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

by feet 4y ago

Classist bullshit. Police the people who have the least money and time to fix things. Awesome, yea that's great for society. Put more pressure on poor people instead of just helping them.

tinus_hn 4y ago

How are you supposed to help people that want to spray their ‘art’ on other peoples property? People that want to vandalize other peoples property? Give them free paint?

orf 4y ago
Sure! and specific places to do it. Works for other countries.
- feet 4y ago
  Graffiti art is beautiful, I think you have a great idea. Another perspective is that people do what they can afford to, murals can be an inexpensive way to brighten an otherwise bleak area.
- tinus_hn 4y ago
  In other news, all these great artists start out as great artists, not vandals who practice spraying ‘ass’ on a wall 5000 times before they are good enough to make a great work of art.
- hickvision 4y ago
  The naivite of this belief is precious. Yes, some people use spraypaint to make stunning, socially relevant art. Banksy is, in some sense, a graffiti artist. But most graffiti has nothing to do with Banksy-esque social commentary. In fact, much of it is simply gang signs labeling areas of turf control. The people writing these gang sign messages are absolutely not interested in having a specific, authorized place in which to exhibit their street artwork.
  - feet 4y ago
    Intent of the artist does not matter, art is subjective and the production of the system of many artists layering their works over time has a beauty in itself It's some seriously privileged classist stuff to make the claims that you're making
    - hickvision 4y ago
      It's seriously privileged and classist to acknowledge that much graffiti is merely gang tags advertising territorial control over an area? It's "subjective" whether or not gang tags constitute art, rather than a danger to the community?!? Huh?!
      - feet 4y ago
        Dangerous art? I wonder which groups of people called art dangerous in the past It's crazy how some people think painted symbols present a danger to humans somehow
        hickvision 4y ago
        How much do you know about street gangs? Yeah, they're dangerous! Turf markings are extremely dangerous. They aren't put there to be art, it's like calling a "caution: floor is wet" sign "art". I'm trying not to be offensive or personal here, but I'm stunned at this take that refuses to acknowledge how dangerous and harmful street gangs are to communities. If you've ever had to live in a neighborhood with them, like I have, then I doubt this would be as much of an issue for you?
        feet 4y ago
        I said the symbols. Painted symbols can easily outlast the people who painted them, painted symbols existing is not an indicator of present danger. It's bizarre how you're conflating the two
        4y ago
feet 4y ago
Investing in communities gives people things to do. People can't invest when they're broke, throwing police at them does nothing to help, in fact it does the opposite. Also your comment makes it sound like literally all people are just vandals who do graffiti. That's a disgusting view of humans that lacks perspective and nuance.
- hfourm 4y ago
  I feel like you didn't read the Wikipedia? Where are you getting your take.
  - eesmith 4y ago
    feet's "Classist bullshit" is a take on the Wikipedia entry, under "Class bias" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory#Class_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory#Class_bi... , which includes: > Critics, such as Robert J. Sampson and Stephen Raudenbush of Harvard University, see the application of the broken windows theory in policing as a war against the poor, as opposed to a war against more serious crimes.
  - feet 4y ago
    I'm getting my take from how the idea is actually implemented and acted upon in reality in the US, not from how people claim it should be implemented as an ideology >It was popularized in the 1990s by New York City police commissioner William Bratton and mayor Rudy Giuliani, whose policing policies were influenced by the theory. Example of the absurdity of implementation: >Throughout the late 1990s, NYPD shut down many of the city's acclaimed night spots for illegal dancing. Tons of criticisms, not to mention it was partially popularized by an incredibly flawed study by the infamous Zimbardo >However, other studies do not find a cause and effect relationship between the adoption of such policies and decreases in crime.[6][25] The decrease may have been part of a broader trend across the United States. The rates of most crimes, including all categories of violent crime, made consecutive declines from their peak in 1990, under Giuliani's predecessor, David Dinkins. Other cities also experienced less crime, even though they had different police policies >Baltimore criminologist Ralph B. Taylor argues in his book that fixing windows is only a partial and short-term solution. His data supports a materialist view: changes in levels of physical decay, superficial social disorder, and racial composition do not lead to higher crime, but economic decline does. He contends that the example shows that real, long-term reductions in crime require that urban politicians, businesses, and community leaders work together to improve the economic fortunes of residents in high-crime areas.[42] >According to a study by Robert J. Sampson and Stephen Raudenbush, the premise on which the theory operates, that social disorder and crime are connected as part of a causal chain, is faulty. They argue that a third factor, collective efficacy, "defined as cohesion among residents combined with shared expectations for the social control of public space," is the actual cause of varying crime rates that are observed in an altered neighborhood environment. They also argue that the relationship between public disorder and crime rate is weak.[44] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory There are so many issues it's difficult to fit everything in one comment. Did you read the wikipedia article?

refurb 4y ago

Funny how the minorities who actually live in crappy neighborhoods want more policing, but plenty of uppity whites claim it’s racist while safely ensconced in their safe neighborhoods.

ProjectArcturis 4y ago
Citation needed.
- refurb 4y ago
  https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/black-americans-police-r...
  - ProjectArcturis 4y ago
    That does not support your claim.
feet 4y ago
You're the only one talking about race here buddy, you might want to think your stance as it sounds a bit racist
- refurb 4y ago
  - feet 4y ago
    Can you please quote the part of my comment that mentions race?
dang 4y ago
Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar. What you did in this thread is not ok. We've had to ask/warn you about this many times in the past, and you've unfortunately continued to do it. If this keeps up, we're going to have to ban you, so please stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

hickvision 4y ago

It isn't classist bullshit at all, it's human psychology observable and testable even on small scales. Try this experiment! Detail clean your car meticulously, and on separate occasions, ask friends to come with you to get some fast food. Notice how much trash they leave behind in the car when they're done - probably none. Now, deliberately make your car interior messy and dirty. Run the same test again with different friends, and observe that more trash has been left behind. Humans naturally conform to the expectations of society, which they interpret based partially on environmental cues of their surroundings. When those environmental cues advertise social expectations of lawlessness, uncaring, and valuelessness, behavior alters to match expectations.

feet 4y ago
Anecdote is not a study nor is it generalizable to a large population. Not to mention your "population" in this case is preselected from your own friend group
- ChrisLomont 4y ago
  >Anecdote is not a study nor is it generalizable to a large population. The page lists many actual studies over large populations with links to read more of the research. OP may have felt since you don't believe the actual studies which were listed and are pretty conclusive, that you can test it yourself to get a feel of the phenomenon. Don't like that, here's [1] google scholar on the broken windows theory, with scads of papers you can read to satisfy your request for studies. [1] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C15&q=broken+windows+theory&btnG=&oq=broken+windows https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C15&q=bro...
  - feet 4y ago
    The page also lists how Zimbardo demonstrated the principle by interfering with his "study" That's alongside numerous other critiques and criticisms which are generally more recent on the wikipedia page that we are commenting on. All you have to do is scroll down.

dang 4y ago

Can you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? It makes threads dumber and nastier. Please make your substantive points without that. We've already had to ask you this once before, and you've continued to post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments pretty regularly. We end up having to ban such accounts, so please fix this. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.