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Pick 3 random stones and arrange them so that they form a straight line. Does the line "exist"? If you consider that only the atoms "count" for existing, then

by otikik 4y ago

Pick 3 random stones and arrange them so that they form a straight line. Does the line "exist"? If you consider that only the atoms "count" for existing, then the line does not exist. (Neither do the stones, by the way - since they are constantly exchanging minor quantities of atoms and electrons with the rest of the environment, the set that defines what each stone is is constantly changing. But let's ignore that bit). The line is a "mathematical abstraction", layered on top of the "real" world. Now consider that you measure and define exactly where that line is, according to the system of coordinates that you prefer. Now imagine that you remove the three stones. Now there's no atoms "sustaining" that the line any more. But in a sense the line is "still there", it's defined by the coordinates you wrote. It can be argued that it has always "existed" - before you put the stones there, before Earth existed, that particular line in space already "was", in the same sense that numbers "are" - that the line has existed in some way or another since Space itself started existing. You now pick 3 bottle caps and put them on top of the line again. Now the line is again defined by 3 clumps of matter. Does it "exist" any more than it existed in the previous two cases? It all comes down to how we use the verb "exist" - it means several things depending on the context. "Exist" in the atoms world, or "exist" as information. I believe that mind and consciousness is a bit of the same thing, just many orders of magnitude bigger. Instead of 3 stones what defines a mind is trillions of neurons arranged in a certain way. I am materialistic, but I believe in the be encoding of information. To me this means that each mind, at some point in time, can absolutely be "encoded" into a big enough number (huge, billions of trillions of digits). So in that sense minds are "defined by atoms" but also "exist independently of atoms, and are eternal".

simonh 4y ago
It's an interesting way to view these things for sure. Marvin Minsky believed that it doesn't make sense to talk about the physical reality of our world, he thought it was a possible world and that's all that matters. I take my cue from the physics of information theory and computation. In that view a computation is a process physically performed by a system. The same applies to mathematical calculations. The result exist independently in some transcendent sense, but in order to actually obtain a result a physical system has to perform the process. That physical system exists independently of the abstract mathematics, and independently of any other system performing the same calculation, or computation. In the same way my brain can have a thought. I can perceive a colour. The pattern of activity might be extremely close to the activity associated with you perceiving the same colour. It might be identical with the pattern of an identical clone or twin of mine experiencing the same perception. Nevertheless they are separate, unconnected, completely independent activities that just happen to have similar interpretations. That's a strict physicalist view, and it's one I subscribe to as being the most plausible. Nevertheless I'm a human being, I have children, I care about my family and friends, and humanity generally. So clearly patterns matter to me as a person, but that's just in my nature. I don't see any reason to think it's fundamental to anything, because thinking that way IMHO leads to some very wooly thinking. just because gold is shiny and pretty, that doesn't mean I think there's something cosmically magical or special about those wavelengths of light. The experience and appreciation of things is important to us, but it doesn't define reality.
NHQ 4y ago
You are conflating abstract reasoning with consciousness. Your invisible line has no effect on the substrate, because the line does not exists. Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex. The lines you describe are placed by your intuition. Most math is intuitive as such, and exists outside of mind, which is why anybody can "discover" axioms, ratios, etc. If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic ordering inside the brain would create a precise and useful thought, such as how to find the ratio of radius to diameter.
- otikik 4y ago
  Thank you for your comment. I think abstract reasoning can be done by machines (up to a point) and I have also spent enough time online to know that we humans are not always capable of exercising it, even if we seem conscious. I don’t understand why you say I mistake the two. The invisible line can very well be a line on a map that defines where a highway gets build. The last part about perfect atomic ordering, I didn’t understand, sorry.
- ajuc 4y ago
  > Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex. Or so it seems. It's entirely possible that consciousness is just post-factum rationalization of what the body did. Have you noticed that sometimes you make a decision but don't do it, and sometimes you make a decision and do it? > If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic ordering inside the brain would create a precise and useful thought, such as how to find the ratio of radius to diameter. Does not follow.
  - mtalantikite 4y ago
    > Have you noticed that sometimes you make a decision but don't do it, and sometimes you make a decision and do it? Absolutely. Sometimes I'll notice in my meditation practice that something will arise and then I'll watch it get labeled by my brain and brought into cognition, but there is a gap between it. It's like watching the brain/body work something out and then present it to your awareness.
  - NHQ 4y ago
svnt 4y ago
You might like to look into papers/books on Integrated Information Theory by Tononi et al. IIT essentially explores the consequences and math of this type of emergence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theor...
- otikik 4y ago
  Thank you, friend, very interesting, I will give it a look!
ajuc 4y ago
You can play with the meaning of words, but in the end I don't care how you call things or how you define existence. You get funny results like dragons and elves existing, whatever, suit yourself. I just care about how the world actually works and not what labels we put on it. So if consciousness exists in the same manner that imaginary lines you draw between stars - fine. Why does it matter?
- otikik 4y ago
  I think you missed the context in which the conversation was taking place. The OP was asking how a mind can be defined by atoms and still be transcendent or eternal in any way. I just offered my view. It doesn't need to matter to you, it only needs to matter to them.

by otikik 4y ago

simonh 4y ago

It's an interesting way to view these things for sure. Marvin Minsky believed that it doesn't make sense to talk about the physical reality of our world, he thought it was a possible world and that's all that matters. I take my cue from the physics of information theory and computation. In that view a computation is a process physically performed by a system. The same applies to mathematical calculations. The result exist independently in some transcendent sense, but in order to actually obtain a result a physical system has to perform the process. That physical system exists independently of the abstract mathematics, and independently of any other system performing the same calculation, or computation. In the same way my brain can have a thought. I can perceive a colour. The pattern of activity might be extremely close to the activity associated with you perceiving the same colour. It might be identical with the pattern of an identical clone or twin of mine experiencing the same perception. Nevertheless they are separate, unconnected, completely independent activities that just happen to have similar interpretations. That's a strict physicalist view, and it's one I subscribe to as being the most plausible. Nevertheless I'm a human being, I have children, I care about my family and friends, and humanity generally. So clearly patterns matter to me as a person, but that's just in my nature. I don't see any reason to think it's fundamental to anything, because thinking that way IMHO leads to some very wooly thinking. just because gold is shiny and pretty, that doesn't mean I think there's something cosmically magical or special about those wavelengths of light. The experience and appreciation of things is important to us, but it doesn't define reality.

NHQ 4y ago

You are conflating abstract reasoning with consciousness. Your invisible line has no effect on the substrate, because the line does not exists. Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex. The lines you describe are placed by your intuition. Most math is intuitive as such, and exists outside of mind, which is why anybody can "discover" axioms, ratios, etc. If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic ordering inside the brain would create a precise and useful thought, such as how to find the ratio of radius to diameter.

otikik 4y ago
Thank you for your comment. I think abstract reasoning can be done by machines (up to a point) and I have also spent enough time online to know that we humans are not always capable of exercising it, even if we seem conscious. I don’t understand why you say I mistake the two. The invisible line can very well be a line on a map that defines where a highway gets build. The last part about perfect atomic ordering, I didn’t understand, sorry.
ajuc 4y ago
> Consciousness effects the mind/brain/body complex. Or so it seems. It's entirely possible that consciousness is just post-factum rationalization of what the body did. Have you noticed that sometimes you make a decision but don't do it, and sometimes you make a decision and do it? > If your notion was correct, only a perfect atomic ordering inside the brain would create a precise and useful thought, such as how to find the ratio of radius to diameter. Does not follow.
- mtalantikite 4y ago
  > Have you noticed that sometimes you make a decision but don't do it, and sometimes you make a decision and do it? Absolutely. Sometimes I'll notice in my meditation practice that something will arise and then I'll watch it get labeled by my brain and brought into cognition, but there is a gap between it. It's like watching the brain/body work something out and then present it to your awareness.
- NHQ 4y ago

svnt 4y ago

You might like to look into papers/books on Integrated Information Theory by Tononi et al. IIT essentially explores the consequences and math of this type of emergence. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theor...

otikik 4y ago
Thank you, friend, very interesting, I will give it a look!

ajuc 4y ago

You can play with the meaning of words, but in the end I don't care how you call things or how you define existence. You get funny results like dragons and elves existing, whatever, suit yourself. I just care about how the world actually works and not what labels we put on it. So if consciousness exists in the same manner that imaginary lines you draw between stars - fine. Why does it matter?

otikik 4y ago
I think you missed the context in which the conversation was taking place. The OP was asking how a mind can be defined by atoms and still be transcendent or eternal in any way. I just offered my view. It doesn't need to matter to you, it only needs to matter to them.