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This is such a naive take on this issue. Just because it is possible to live without Google doesn’t make it easy. Even if you try to actively avoid all of these

This is such a naive take on this issue. Just because it is possible to live without Google doesn’t make it easy. Even if you try to actively avoid all of these companies you’re still going to most likely end up with your data harvested via third parties fed back into their machine meaning you’re still padding their bottom line. People are not going to suddenly switch to Linux on the desktop or Google-services free android forks en masse because they’re demanding better services. Maybe they die and get replaced but in between that happening you are still having to deal with the realities of the situation you are currently. People just want shit that works and for most of them it does most of the time. But some people get absolutely fucked and there is no good excuse for it.

scarface74 4y ago
I think giving government more power is much more naive. I can get from under a company much easier than a government.
parasubvert 4y ago
Who is talking about Linux on the desktop? It’s dead easy to avoid Google completely for average people. The Microsoft ecosystem is one way, at least on PCs and tablets. There is also the Apple ecosystem, which can easily avoid Google entirely down to the phone level, and not get anything harvested due to copious privacy features. People get fucked with Google accounts all the time, yes. The excuse is that Google is made of humans. As is the government. Or Apple and Microsoft for that matter. Some of these humans are better at software than others. If you think this is an easily solvable problem through laws and regulations, that regulators are going to get software design and support processes right… I think you might not have studied the history of of such laws and regulations. The good ones take decades to get right. The benefit of not enshrining these companies as a public utility, and thus guaranteeing a mandatory mediocre experience for decades, is that it encourages the use and creation of alternatives. That dies when you legislate features.
- hellotomyrars 4y ago
  You mentioned those other companies as well though. So if you’re trying to avoid all of them then you are backed in to a corner and no average person is ever going to do so. It really isn’t that complicated. I’m not asking for the government to audit the software. However I don’t think it is too much to ask for an actual support channel. It is insane for a company that touches almost ever person on earth in some way to be impossible to reach for support. I don’t even think the problem is that the company is made of humans. The problem is that when the black box algorithm makes a decision that locks someone out of their account or some service/feature there is no recourse. The humans are the solution to the problem, but you can’t get them to look at it unless you have a platform to stand on. It’s disgusting.
  - parasubvert 4y ago
    But some human made that algorithm. ML models are alchemy, no one understands how they work fundamentally, so they're very susceptible to human bias. James Mickens USENIX '18 keynote is a great laugh/cry view of this. Regulations mandating a support channel of some sort is reasonable. Also, I don't think it's reasonable to say a person needs to be free of ALL those companies. Decentralized for-profit organizations are how we get things done as a society, mostly. Pick the companies you trust/value. My point was mostly about avoiding ad-revenue-driven companies.
    - hellotomyrars 4y ago
      I think then we are actually a lot more on the same page. Not the read I got initially but this is my general feeling on the issue. Appreciate the discourse.

scarface74 4y ago

I think giving government more power is much more naive. I can get from under a company much easier than a government.

parasubvert 4y ago

Who is talking about Linux on the desktop? It’s dead easy to avoid Google completely for average people. The Microsoft ecosystem is one way, at least on PCs and tablets. There is also the Apple ecosystem, which can easily avoid Google entirely down to the phone level, and not get anything harvested due to copious privacy features. People get fucked with Google accounts all the time, yes. The excuse is that Google is made of humans. As is the government. Or Apple and Microsoft for that matter. Some of these humans are better at software than others. If you think this is an easily solvable problem through laws and regulations, that regulators are going to get software design and support processes right… I think you might not have studied the history of of such laws and regulations. The good ones take decades to get right. The benefit of not enshrining these companies as a public utility, and thus guaranteeing a mandatory mediocre experience for decades, is that it encourages the use and creation of alternatives. That dies when you legislate features.

hellotomyrars 4y ago
You mentioned those other companies as well though. So if you’re trying to avoid all of them then you are backed in to a corner and no average person is ever going to do so. It really isn’t that complicated. I’m not asking for the government to audit the software. However I don’t think it is too much to ask for an actual support channel. It is insane for a company that touches almost ever person on earth in some way to be impossible to reach for support. I don’t even think the problem is that the company is made of humans. The problem is that when the black box algorithm makes a decision that locks someone out of their account or some service/feature there is no recourse. The humans are the solution to the problem, but you can’t get them to look at it unless you have a platform to stand on. It’s disgusting.
- parasubvert 4y ago
  But some human made that algorithm. ML models are alchemy, no one understands how they work fundamentally, so they're very susceptible to human bias. James Mickens USENIX '18 keynote is a great laugh/cry view of this. Regulations mandating a support channel of some sort is reasonable. Also, I don't think it's reasonable to say a person needs to be free of ALL those companies. Decentralized for-profit organizations are how we get things done as a society, mostly. Pick the companies you trust/value. My point was mostly about avoiding ad-revenue-driven companies.
  - hellotomyrars 4y ago
    I think then we are actually a lot more on the same page. Not the read I got initially but this is my general feeling on the issue. Appreciate the discourse.